NOM

stuck wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 4:18 pm Hey Mayan, I don't think Moksha was saying that all saints are anti-lgbt. I think he was just poking fun at the church because of what Angel listed and I would add the musket speech given by Holland. Can't we all just get along? Namaste

All exmos are divorced adultering alcoholics, which includes you.

Hysterical.

I dont really think that. Just playing along with saying untrue things about groups of people if there is an example of it being true.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 7:57 pm

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 3:32 pm I dont think calling all saints hateful is kind nor accurate.

Hateful or not.

Kind or not.

Like angel said: Those who "stay" are in some way complicit in supporting a hateful organization.

Not only bigoted and hateful, they spend millions protecting predators.




And... I don't see anywhere in this post where the penguin typed "all saints." You seem to be putting words into the flightless bird's beak.

Thanks wtfluff. I know there are those here who still attend to support family, but I see them as not supporting their families - but instead putting their family in harms way. Sorry, but to me its like standing by smiling not stopping family from smoking, not stopping them from drinking poisoned kool-aid -smiling, being nice and kind, not pulling away the chains...

Its called "institutional complicity". A culture with abuse and bias, it includes collective responsibility - it takes the whole tribe driving lgbtq kids to kill themselves. For abuse- the protection afforded by clergy-penitent privilege can perpetuats abuse.

Just smile, wear a fancy suit, look good - don't say anything, don't help. Look sad, shake head, perpetuate the idea you don't believe them, that you think they are the problem (not organization, not leader), protected the church, downplay the evil. It takes the whole smiling congregation.

When the entire congregation sustains and supports biased pedophile leaders, there's a shared responsibility. Raised their hands and sustained him to bishopric in front of kids he abused. Everyone telling kids he is called of God, that they felt spirit, telling abused kids how they 'know' their dad is called of god.... The belief in and protection of these leaders takes precedence over safeguarding the well-being of children. Its known as "victim-nlaming". The leaders and the organization are prioritized over the protection of vulnerable individuals within the community.

It takes the whole tribe.

Some stay in the tribe. Raise their hands to sustain leaders. smile sadly at the kids, pat them on the back... treat kids like they are the insane ones, treat those who leave like they are the weak ones...

Some don't stay. Some pull the chains off their family.

Angel wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 6:09 am

wtfluff wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 7:57 pm

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 3:32 pm I dont think calling all saints hateful is kind nor accurate.

Hateful or not.

Kind or not.

Like angel said: Those who "stay" are in some way complicit in supporting a hateful organization.

Not only bigoted and hateful, they spend millions protecting predators.




And... I don't see anywhere in this post where the penguin typed "all saints." You seem to be putting words into the flightless bird's beak.

Thanks wtfluff. I know there are those here who still attend to support family, but I see them as not supporting their families - but instead putting their family in harms way. Sorry, but to me its like standing by smiling not stopping family from smoking, not stopping them from drinking poisoned kool-aid -smiling, being nice and kind, not pulling away the chains...

Its called "institutional complicity". A culture with abuse and bias, it includes collective responsibility - it takes the whole tribe driving lgbtq kids to kill themselves. For abuse- the protection afforded by clergy-penitent privilege can perpetuats abuse.

Just smile, wear a fancy suit, look good - don't say anything, don't help. Look sad, shake head, perpetuate the idea you don't believe them, that you think they are the problem (not organization, not leader), protected the church, downplay the evil. It takes the whole smiling congregation.

When the entire congregation sustains and supports biased pedophile leaders, there's a shared responsibility. Raised their hands and sustained him to bishopric in front of kids he abused. Everyone telling kids he is called of God, that they felt spirit, telling abused kids how they 'know' their dad is called of god.... The belief in and protection of these leaders takes precedence over safeguarding the well-being of children. Its known as "victim-nlaming". The leaders and the organization are prioritized over the protection of vulnerable individuals within the community.

It takes the whole tribe.

Some stay in the tribe. Raise their hands to sustain leaders. smile sadly at the kids, pat them on the back... treat kids like they are the insane ones, treat those who leave like they are the weak ones...

Some don't stay. Some pull the chains off their family.

Backing up a bit here, the jolly penguin didn’t say “some”saints. I would hate to put words in his mouth and understate who he is accusing of hatred.

If you live in America, and America starts a war, are you a complicit killer? Is the blood of dead soldiers on Dick Cheney’s hands or yours? If America protected every predator on Epstein Island and you remain a voting citizen in America - are you the pedophile or just a voting American?

Sometimes a member of a church is just a member of a church and not complicit in the acts of others. And all times when we judge mass groups of people based on the color of their skin they were born with or the shape of their religion they were born with- that’s bigotry.

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 10:01 am
Backing up a bit here, the jolly penguin didn’t say “some”saints. I would hate to put words in his mouth and understate who he is accusing of hatred.

If you live in America, and America starts a war, are you a complicit killer? Is the blood of dead soldiers on Dick Cheney’s hands or yours? If America protected every predator on Epstein Island and you remain a voting citizen in America - are you the pedophile or just a voting American?

Sometimes a member of a church is just a member of a church and not complicit in the acts of others. And all times when we judge mass groups of people based on the color of their skin they were born with or the shape of their religion they were born with- that’s bigotry.

I love America - love the ability to vote, to attend protests and rallies, to participate in checks and balances, to uphold the idea of a nation "by the people, for the people" - not "by the pope, or by the prophet for the prophet".

As a citizen I am not complicit - I am able to speak up, I am able to vote, and yes - I did walk away from a government job I felt was unethical involving work for the DOD.

The church is different than America. Church is not "by the people for the people". Church is "by the prophet, for the pro$$it".

a member of a church is NOT just a member of a church. They volunteer, they stay there, they raise their hands and support leaders, they testify - an organized mob. they put the group in group think.

• Have you ever voted against giving someone a calling?

Please give an example where congregations actually vote and control who is given leadership positions (as is done in America). Everyone sustains leaders. You don't go to the temple if you don't sustain leaders in the church. You must raise your hand and testify that god called the bishop/youth leader/RS president/pedophile - and then you have to follow their counsel, protect them, think the best of them - would never testify against them in court. Members are actively engaged in all of it, responsible for what goes down.

Name a court case where the LDS church protected a child against one of their pedophiles. There are none.

Apples and oranges. You have made a false analogy. Religious affiliation isn't an ethnic group - after you turn 18, you have a choice in what church to go to. Evaluating a group of individuals based on their skin color differs significantly from assessing a group based on their voluntary religious affiliations. When it comes to politics and religion, these are choices individuals make, and it is reasonable to form judgments based on these voluntary decisions.

Members of religious groups, who voluntarily stay in those groups, and voluntarily follow the leaders in those groups, are accountable for the actions of their group.

Members of countries are accountable for voting, for holding leaders accountable, for organizing protests and changing their country when needed. If I voted, and spoke up, and worked to correct/convict/change policies - I can wash my hands of it.

I found the church does not allow any changes to come from within, so I walked away, removed my record, pulled my family out, and encourage others to do the same.

Thanks Angel. These are all valid points, including blowing up my analogy or metaphor.

Let me try this again, in light of your valid points. I don’t believe all teamsters are complicit with the RICO-level aggression of the leaders of the Teamsters Union. I actually think that many teamsters are doing the best they can for themselves within a faulty system.

I think that we can and shall discuss the errors of leadership and systems without stereotyping large swaths of people.

I know members of the church who do not hate gays and who disapprove of the things you point out. I will push back on calling them names and judging them unkindly.

Angel wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 11:10 am

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 10:01 am
Backing up a bit here, the jolly penguin didn’t say “some”saints. I would hate to put words in his mouth and understate who he is accusing of hatred.

If you live in America, and America starts a war, are you a complicit killer? Is the blood of dead soldiers on Dick Cheney’s hands or yours? If America protected every predator on Epstein Island and you remain a voting citizen in America - are you the pedophile or just a voting American?

Sometimes a member of a church is just a member of a church and not complicit in the acts of others. And all times when we judge mass groups of people based on the color of their skin they were born with or the shape of their religion they were born with- that’s bigotry.

I love America - love the ability to vote, to attend protests and rallies, to participate in checks and balances, to uphold the idea of a nation "by the people, for the people" - not "by the pope, or by the prophet for the prophet".

As a citizen I am not complicit - I am able to speak up, I am able to vote, and yes - I did walk away from a government job I felt was unethical involving work for the DOD.

The church is different than America. Church is not "by the people for the people". Church is "by the prophet, for the pro$$it".

a member of a church is NOT just a member of a church. They volunteer, they stay there, they raise their hands and support leaders, they testify - an organized mob. they put the group in group think.

• Have you ever voted against giving someone a calling?

Please give an example where congregations actually vote and control who is given leadership positions (as is done in America). Everyone sustains leaders. You don't go to the temple if you don't sustain leaders in the church. You must raise your hand and testify that god called the bishop/youth leader/RS president/pedophile - and then you have to follow their counsel, protect them, think the best of them - would never testify against them in court. Members are actively engaged in all of it, responsible for what goes down.

Name a court case where the LDS church protected a child against one of their pedophiles. There are none.

Apples and oranges. You have made a false analogy. Religious affiliation isn't an ethnic group - after you turn 18, you have a choice in what church to go to. Evaluating a group of individuals based on their skin color differs significantly from assessing a group based on their voluntary religious affiliations. When it comes to politics and religion, these are choices individuals make, and it is reasonable to form judgments based on these voluntary decisions.

Members of religious groups, who voluntarily stay in those groups, and voluntarily follow the leaders in those groups, are accountable for the actions of their group.

Members of countries are accountable for voting, for holding leaders accountable, for organizing protests and changing their country when needed. If I voted, and spoke up, and worked to correct/convict/change policies - I can wash my hands of it.

I found the church does not allow any changes to come from within, so I walked away, removed my record, pulled my family out, and encourage others to do the same.

There is something to this. I love my husband who is currently at church. But occasionally I get angry that he can remain in a church and just plain not WANT to understand that his tithing dollars go to bad mouthing sexual abuse victims like the church did in the Joseph Bishop case. I try to talk to him about how corrupt this is, how it hurts me, when the church spends money to make a sexual abuse victim look crazy and supports a $##@-$##+&++$ in court. They really do not give a damn that this guy used his church calling to abuse more than one missionary. Nope, they totally support the criminal, and make his victims look crazy because of the emotional damage their beloved criminal did. They knew about the abuse and did not pull him out of the position. You cannot write this off as one bad apple making a mistake or even one bad apple making a mistake and another bad apple supporting the asshat. Nope, there are a whole bunch of them. And my husband just can’t see how the way they treated me is pretty much how they treated Bishop’s victims. My husband doesn’t want to know. He doesn’t want me to talk about it. He WANTS to not see it so he can keep supporting the church.

At what point is he still innocent in harming women? Or is he guilty of doing the same thing to another woman as the church did to me by loving and supporting my father and treating me, telling me that I was worse than the man who abused me because I was hurt by it. That is like blaming the victim of a drunk driver because they were injured and can’t walk without a wheel chair and to forgive they have to stop using the wheel chair, and if they don’t forgive by getting up and walking then they are worse than the drunk, who by the way hasn’t stopped drinking.

Yes, that is EXACTLY what the church does to sexual abuse victims. It blames them for the harm and expects them to heal the harm all by themselves while they love and help the abuser pretend to repent.

So, who is helping the church do this? Who is guilty of not wanting to know? Who is complicit in the cover up? Any member of the church has a responsibility to inform themselves about how the church covers up an abuser’s confession and allows the abuse to keep happening and totally fails to help a child.

So, Mayan, your analogy is bad because people have a responsibility to find out what the church does and stop it. It is not at all like the comparison to America. You can say Trump voters are guilty of not caring that the man is a rapist, but you cannot hang that on those of us who have been against a rapist for president from the start. I voted against Trump. My husband still supports those who allow rapists to get away with it, just as bad as if he was voting for Trump. He votes to sustain church leaders.

After writing this, I see Mayan has adjusted his position.

Angel wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 7:34 pm The "The New Apostolic Reformation" (NAR), not Mormonism, is where all the fanatics are headed.. the new prophet and apostles...

Scary as ##***##.

The current Republican Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, is a member of that Christian Nationalist movement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apost ... 0Orthodoxy

alas wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 1:19 pm

Angel wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 11:10 am

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 10:01 am
Backing up a bit here, the jolly penguin didn’t say “some”saints. I would hate to put words in his mouth and understate who he is accusing of hatred.

If you live in America, and America starts a war, are you a complicit killer? Is the blood of dead soldiers on Dick Cheney’s hands or yours? If America protected every predator on Epstein Island and you remain a voting citizen in America - are you the pedophile or just a voting American?

Sometimes a member of a church is just a member of a church and not complicit in the acts of others. And all times when we judge mass groups of people based on the color of their skin they were born with or the shape of their religion they were born with- that’s bigotry.

I love America - love the ability to vote, to attend protests and rallies, to participate in checks and balances, to uphold the idea of a nation "by the people, for the people" - not "by the pope, or by the prophet for the prophet".

As a citizen I am not complicit - I am able to speak up, I am able to vote, and yes - I did walk away from a government job I felt was unethical involving work for the DOD.

The church is different than America. Church is not "by the people for the people". Church is "by the prophet, for the pro$$it".

a member of a church is NOT just a member of a church. They volunteer, they stay there, they raise their hands and support leaders, they testify - an organized mob. they put the group in group think.

• Have you ever voted against giving someone a calling?

Please give an example where congregations actually vote and control who is given leadership positions (as is done in America). Everyone sustains leaders. You don't go to the temple if you don't sustain leaders in the church. You must raise your hand and testify that god called the bishop/youth leader/RS president/pedophile - and then you have to follow their counsel, protect them, think the best of them - would never testify against them in court. Members are actively engaged in all of it, responsible for what goes down.

Name a court case where the LDS church protected a child against one of their pedophiles. There are none.

Apples and oranges. You have made a false analogy. Religious affiliation isn't an ethnic group - after you turn 18, you have a choice in what church to go to. Evaluating a group of individuals based on their skin color differs significantly from assessing a group based on their voluntary religious affiliations. When it comes to politics and religion, these are choices individuals make, and it is reasonable to form judgments based on these voluntary decisions.

Members of religious groups, who voluntarily stay in those groups, and voluntarily follow the leaders in those groups, are accountable for the actions of their group.

Members of countries are accountable for voting, for holding leaders accountable, for organizing protests and changing their country when needed. If I voted, and spoke up, and worked to correct/convict/change policies - I can wash my hands of it.

I found the church does not allow any changes to come from within, so I walked away, removed my record, pulled my family out, and encourage others to do the same.

There is something to this. I love my husband who is currently at church. But occasionally I get angry that he can remain in a church and just plain not WANT to understand that his tithing dollars go to bad mouthing sexual abuse victims like the church did in the Joseph Bishop case. I try to talk to him about how corrupt this is, how it hurts me, when the church spends money to make a sexual abuse victim look crazy and supports a $##@-$##+&++$ in court. They really do not give a damn that this guy used his church calling to abuse more than one missionary. Nope, they totally support the criminal, and make his victims look crazy because of the emotional damage their beloved criminal did. They knew about the abuse and did not pull him out of the position. You cannot write this off as one bad apple making a mistake or even one bad apple making a mistake and another bad apple supporting the asshat. Nope, there are a whole bunch of them. And my husband just can’t see how the way they treated me is pretty much how they treated Bishop’s victims. My husband doesn’t want to know. He doesn’t want me to talk about it. He WANTS to not see it so he can keep supporting the church.

At what point is he still innocent in harming women? Or is he guilty of doing the same thing to another woman as the church did to me by loving and supporting my father and treating me, telling me that I was worse than the man who abused me because I was hurt by it. That is like blaming the victim of a drunk driver because they were injured and can’t walk without a wheel chair and to forgive they have to stop using the wheel chair, and if they don’t forgive by getting up and walking then they are worse than the drunk, who by the way hasn’t stopped drinking.

Yes, that is EXACTLY what the church does to sexual abuse victims. It blames them for the harm and expects them to heal the harm all by themselves while they love and help the abuser pretend to repent.

So, who is helping the church do this? Who is guilty of not wanting to know? Who is complicit in the cover up? Any member of the church has a responsibility to inform themselves about how the church covers up an abuser’s confession and allows the abuse to keep happening and totally fails to help a child.

So, Mayan, your analogy is bad because people have a responsibility to find out what the church does and stop it. It is not at all like the comparison to America. You can say Trump voters are guilty of not caring that the man is a rapist, but you cannot hang that on those of us who have been against a rapist for president from the start. I voted against Trump. My husband still supports those who allow rapists to get away with it, just as bad as if he was voting for Trump. He votes to sustain church leaders.

After writing this, I see Mayan has adjusted his position.

Thanks. I acknowledge your point as I have acknowledged Angel’s. I am not refuting these points or positions. I believe you. I hear you.

I think change is necessary and that it will only happen by and through external force.

However, I don’t see my family members or your husband as hateful or proselyting hatred. They may all be misguided or wrong or ignorant. They may be aware but have different considerations.

To me, and for me, bigoted comments about good people stalls the progress by destroying credibility.

moksha wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 2:44 pm
The current Republican Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, is a member of that Christian Nationalist movement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apost ... 0Orthodoxy

There's far more than just Johnson unfortunately.

This has been a good convo for me as I prepare for the next semester. With AI, international upheaval, an election year - I'm going to start the semester off with a good discussion of what group think is, tied to academic integrity. The solution - to AI, to international students, to diverse political groups that will be in the classrooms this semester - what I have said at faculty meetings and curriculum - to require diverse extensive reference sections for all. Study groups, project groups, lab groups - students will be mixed up, Palestinians will have to work with Israelis. Atheist's will need to work with Christians. Trump supporters will work with liberal LGBTQ students. I'm going to mix it up and make everyone in all my classes get to know someone outside of their bubble. (I'm lead faculty in a very diverse school.)

I'm going to do everything I can to peel everyone away from all their little groups. Religious groups. Political groups. Nationalistic groups. Ethnic groups.

This ego-echo-chamber ##**## humans do - where everyone camps out in their bubble - constructs little online and in-person worlds that adhere to their various delusions - it has to stop. We are on the brink of WW3 because of groupthink.

Don't follow the prophet.
Don't follow the president.
Don't follow your teacher.
Research research research - research all the diverse viewpoints you can - and then after listening to all sides, really really listening, then combine it all - and add your own voice, your own experience - "by the people, for the people", not by any supposed authority figure.

by the people - people getting to know other people - people thinking for themselves, self-reliant as best they can, good research - listening to everyone - not just one group - listening to everyone. This is the healthy way for any group to exist, I will be teaching and preaching it, mixing it up, prying students out of their bubbles this semester. Critical thought. Independent thought. No copying. Academic integrity.

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 3:22 pm
Thanks. I acknowledge your point as I have acknowledged Amen’s. I am not refuting these points or positions. I believe you. I hear you.

I think change is necessary and that it will only happen by and through external force.

However, I don’t see my family members or your husband as hateful or proselyting hatred. They may all be misguided or wrong or ignorant. They may be aware but have different considerations.

To me, and for me, bigoted comments about good people stalls the progress by destroying credibility.

Let's hope it doesn't take force.
Let's hope it doesn't take bombs, and killing people - is force working in the middle east right now? is force changing the hearts of Russians? Ukrainians?

Let me tell you a Halloween story. I made the evening class optional - just there for review / catch up to let ppl enjoy the holiday with their kids etc. I went in, hoping no one would show up - but the international students, they showed up - Halloween means nothing to them, not one of their holidays. A family of Muslims, and one Israeli were there - they made it to class before I did, and they were sitting around a table, talking and laughing with one another. I could have cried. They had all grown up on the same streets. They were familiar with the same neighborhoods. Before Halloween my Israeli - he sat at the front row, and the Muslims, they sat in the back. The Israeli had PTSD, had scars on his legs. One class he had a breakdown, was holding his phone shaking - watching the news. From this rift in class, to all of them sitting around a table talking with one another - in Arabic (Israeli's learn how to speak Arabic as part of their training) - laughing with one another, talking.

Communicating - talking - getting to know people outside your bubble - this is the solution I see. Have to peel everyone away from their bubbles.

Angel wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 4:26 pm

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 3:22 pm
Thanks. I acknowledge your point as I have acknowledged Amen’s. I am not refuting these points or positions. I believe you. I hear you.

I think change is necessary and that it will only happen by and through external force.

However, I don’t see my family members or your husband as hateful or proselyting hatred. They may all be misguided or wrong or ignorant. They may be aware but have different considerations.

To me, and for me, bigoted comments about good people stalls the progress by destroying credibility.

Let's hope it doesn't take force.
Let's hope it doesn't take bombs, and killing people - is force working in the middle east right now? is force changing the hearts of Russians? Ukrainians?

Let me tell you a Halloween story. I made the evening class optional - just there for review / catch up to let ppl enjoy the holiday with their kids etc. I went in, hoping no one would show up - but the international students, they showed up - Halloween means nothing to them, not one of their holidays. A family of Muslims, and one Israeli were there - they made it to class before I did, and they were sitting around a table, talking and laughing with one another. I could have cried. They had all grown up on the same streets. They were familiar with the same neighborhoods. Before Halloween my Israeli - he sat at the front row, and the Muslims, they sat in the back. The Israeli had PTSD, had scars on his legs. One class he had a breakdown, was holding his phone shaking - watching the news. From this rift in class, to all of them sitting around a table talking with one another - in Arabic (Israeli's learn how to speak Arabic as part of their training) - laughing with one another, talking.

Communicating - talking - getting to know people outside your bubble - this is the solution I see. Have to peel everyone away from their bubbles.

I did not intend for force to mean war.

Peeling people away from their bubbles is good. Allowing people into our bubbles and being welcome into theirs is better.

It’s not clear to me whether you disagree entirely with my point or if you sorta agree. On the one hand, you seem fine with the name-calling, blaming, and judgements of mormons as hateful and complicit with crimes. On the other hand, you see some value in people gaining trust and understanding.

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 4:45 pm

Angel wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 4:26 pm

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 3:22 pm
Thanks. I acknowledge your point as I have acknowledged Amen’s. I am not refuting these points or positions. I believe you. I hear you.

I think change is necessary and that it will only happen by and through external force.

However, I don’t see my family members or your husband as hateful or proselyting hatred. They may all be misguided or wrong or ignorant. They may be aware but have different considerations.

To me, and for me, bigoted comments about good people stalls the progress by destroying credibility.

Let's hope it doesn't take force.
Let's hope it doesn't take bombs, and killing people - is force working in the middle east right now? is force changing the hearts of Russians? Ukrainians?

Let me tell you a Halloween story. I made the evening class optional - just there for review / catch up to let ppl enjoy the holiday with their kids etc. I went in, hoping no one would show up - but the international students, they showed up - Halloween means nothing to them, not one of their holidays. A family of Muslims, and one Israeli were there - they made it to class before I did, and they were sitting around a table, talking and laughing with one another. I could have cried. They had all grown up on the same streets. They were familiar with the same neighborhoods. Before Halloween my Israeli - he sat at the front row, and the Muslims, they sat in the back. The Israeli had PTSD, had scars on his legs. One class he had a breakdown, was holding his phone shaking - watching the news. From this rift in class, to all of them sitting around a table talking with one another - in Arabic (Israeli's learn how to speak Arabic as part of their training) - laughing with one another, talking.

Communicating - talking - getting to know people outside your bubble - this is the solution I see. Have to peel everyone away from their bubbles.

I did not intend for force to mean war.

Peeling people away from their bubbles is good. Allowing people into our bubbles and being welcome into theirs is better.

It’s not clear to me whether you disagree entirely with my point or if you sorta agree. On the one hand, you seem fine with the name-calling, blaming, and judgements of mormons as hateful and complicit with crimes. On the other hand, you see some value in people gaining trust and understanding.

I think when people are angry, they tend to generalize their anger to a whole group. So, Israel is angry at the attack, and they generalize that anger and end up not caring that they kill women and children. Some of us here are angry at the church and tend to generalize that anger to all members of that church. There is a difference between people who support the church they believe in, even if they know it has flaws like blaming victims of sexual abuse, and the people who are actually guilty of the harm. It’s like the innocent bystanders who watch a crime go down and out of fear they don’t stop it compared to the ones committing the crime. There may be guilt on both but it is very different degrees. The Palestinians who support Hamas are guilty of supporting terrorists, but not guilty of being terrorists. There are different degrees of guilt.

As far as generalizing the guilt to all members of the church, that is wrong for most subjects. But like with Angels case, it was pretty much her whole ward. She shouldn’t have to sort it who to still be nice to because they are less guilty than the one person who did the actual abuse. She just needed to get angry and get out. Most of that ward was probably confused and didn’t know what to believe. But she shouldn’t have to decide which ones to be angry with and which to hold as innocent. Sometimes a person just has to declare that X is the enemy, with X being the whole group. That is normally what people do in war. During WWII we didn’t worry that our bombs killed children too. We had declared Germans the enemy. Sure, most of them were innocent.

So, sometimes people declare all Mormons are homophobes. Sure, not all of them. But the ones who are not homophobes still support a church that is. So, they DO hold some responsibility for supporting homophobes. They don’t think it is bad enough to stop supporting the church. That is why I think Trump supporters are racist, because they don’t think his racism is bad enough that they stop supporting Trump.

So, do I think calling them racist helps? No, of course not. But it isn’t going to change that I think they are racist. And I would tell them that supporting a racist when they can see he is racist makes them tolerant of racism. Do I tell my husband he is tolerant of homophobes? Yeah, I have. And he agrees that he is guilty of being tolerant of homophobes. But it is like we still loved my F I L when he was racist. Sometimes we put up with people’s weaknesses, because, well because we get something out of it.

But back to name calling of church members. Do I get tired of it? Yes. Do I think we should moderate it around here? No. Do I think it is fine for you to pick on the penguin when he calls people names or generalizes the faults of a few Mormons out to Mormons without qualifying “some” Mormons. I think you are picking on him because he reacts to you bullying him. He is trying to make it into a joke. Personally, I don’t like that kind of humor, but maybe it is his way of coping. So, why try to be a moderator around here. Just ignore the penguin, or just tell him is is making too broad of a generalization, then shut up. Why bully him?

What is bullying about not laughing at a poorly made joke calling all mormons proselyters of hate?

Am I a bully if I don’t laugh at jokes calling all Muslims terrorists? Or what if I dont laugh at jokes calling all transexuals pedophiles? I don’t find those jokes funny or interesting.

I get your disdain and hard line. My line is not as hard and I don’t consider it bullying to be less rigid.

alas wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 1:19 pm
There is something to this. I love my husband who is currently at church. But occasionally I get angry that he can remain in a church and just plain not WANT to understand that his tithing dollars go to bad mouthing sexual abuse victims like the church did in the Joseph Bishop case. I try to talk to him about how corrupt this is, how it hurts me, when the church spends money to make a sexual abuse victim look crazy and supports a $##@-$##+&++$ in court. They really do not give a damn that this guy used his church calling to abuse more than one missionary. Nope, they totally support the criminal, and make his victims look crazy because of the emotional damage their beloved criminal did. They knew about the abuse and did not pull him out of the position. You cannot write this off as one bad apple making a mistake or even one bad apple making a mistake and another bad apple supporting the asshat. Nope, there are a whole bunch of them. And my husband just can’t see how the way they treated me is pretty much how they treated Bishop’s victims. My husband doesn’t want to know. He doesn’t want me to talk about it. He WANTS to not see it so he can keep supporting the church.

At what point is he still innocent in harming women? Or is he guilty of doing the same thing to another woman as the church did to me by loving and supporting my father and treating me, telling me that I was worse than the man who abused me because I was hurt by it. That is like blaming the victim of a drunk driver because they were injured and can’t walk without a wheel chair and to forgive they have to stop using the wheel chair, and if they don’t forgive by getting up and walking then they are worse than the drunk, who by the way hasn’t stopped drinking.

Yes, that is EXACTLY what the church does to sexual abuse victims. It blames them for the harm and expects them to heal the harm all by themselves while they love and help the abuser pretend to repent.

So, who is helping the church do this? Who is guilty of not wanting to know? Who is complicit in the cover up? Any member of the church has a responsibility to inform themselves about how the church covers up an abuser’s confession and allows the abuse to keep happening and totally fails to help a child.

So, Mayan, your analogy is bad because people have a responsibility to find out what the church does and stop it. It is not at all like the comparison to America. You can say Trump voters are guilty of not caring that the man is a rapist, but you cannot hang that on those of us who have been against a rapist for president from the start. I voted against Trump. My husband still supports those who allow rapists to get away with it, just as bad as if he was voting for Trump. He votes to sustain church leaders.

After writing this, I see Mayan has adjusted his position.

I've been thinking about your post Alas. to heal the harm all by themselves.

I'm not sure if you went through the same stages as me, but yes - the transition from relying on others, women cannot perform saving ordinances, women are not supposed to provide, not supposed to protect, women do not lead the household, women do not serve as bishop ...

put your own air mask on first. the safety instructions given on airplanes. I wasn't able to help the kids around me until I was able to stand on my own two feet.

when I realized that I was the one who was the protector. I am the provider. I am the authority figure. I am the leader. a scary thing, especially when other little ones are relying on you. no one at church would testify for them. we were unofficially excommunicated - no one would talk to us. people we knew for years and years, people the kids grew up with their entire lives turned their backs on us.

I was alone. the kids and I were alone. we are healing on our own, no one could help us. once you help yourself, self-reliant, and realize that's the only way out - by the end everyone has to become their own authority figure, everyone has to be self-reliant emotionally, physically, spiritually - no prophet to guide you, you guide yourself.

becoming self-reliant. not just self reliant→ supporting others. that was the real transition. I guess it is part of growing up. First your grandparents die, then parents need your help, all the support networks, they all slip away and you are left becoming what you need, what others need.

when you realize you are your own authority figure, then become self-reliant - some call you prideful, some call you all sorts of names when their advice is no longer respected... its not from pride, its from survival - to get a job, to go to the police, to find the right detective, the right therapists, to find people who are actually on the side of the kids- (because they went through it too as a kid, and so they understand too).

stand on your own, and then you find them. your new ppl.

follow the crowd and lose your soul.
follow your soul and lose the crowd.
do not fear the process of isolation,
for soon your soul tribe will appear. - anonymous

isolation. my husband was unable to help. had issues of his own, and it was his brother - he wasn't there mentally, wasn't strong enough. no one was strong enough. there is a period of isolation - solitary confinement, that's where you find your own strength, your own authority.

it is not a "covenant bond" on the other side, when you start connecting with your new tribe. it isn't unhealthy dependent/codependent relationships. the new bonds - mutual respect, non-controlling, unconditional - after a few years you also start learning what a healthy relationship looks like too.

big big hugs alas. this crazy journey.

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 4:45 pm

I did not intend for force to mean war.

Peeling people away from their bubbles is good. Allowing people into our bubbles and being welcome into theirs is better.

It’s not clear to me whether you disagree entirely with my point or if you sorta agree. On the one hand, you seem fine with the name-calling, blaming, and judgements of mormons as hateful and complicit with crimes. On the other hand, you see some value in people gaining trust and understanding.

Force is a type of warfare, warfare doesn't work.


I didn't hate my bishop, he appeared to me as a little bumbling kid. he was insecure. he had no idea what to do. a deer in the headlights. I had to tell him, had to correct him. there was an instance where he gave a TR to someone he should not have, and I had to correct him, send them both back into the office - like putting little kids into time out. they went back in, and this time the TR wasn't handed out. there were others in the ward who were also not getting the help they needed - I had to find secular help for them too.

when I was a TBM I thought I was "serving", thought I was just "helping" when delivering meals, watching kids, dishing out all the support. I guess because I had always given others so much support, I thought when the time came it would be reciprocal it wasn't.

not angry, not hateful. it's just the laws of nature. just empty boats - no one there, no one able to help. the illusion - the illusion is gone, fog and mirrors.

the parable that really helped me - a few different versions of it, but:

A fisherman was enjoying time out on the river in a beautiful little boat - enjoy the singing birds, perfect weather, relaxing, proud of their little boat... when another boat come floating along headed on collision course. "Stop!! Turn!! You're going to hit me!!" - the little fisherman gets angry, yelling at the other boat, angry at disturbed peace - tries to get out of the way, but too late, crash! collision!! ruined boats!!.... but then you look to see who is in the other boat, who to yell at, who to get angry at - and find the other boat is empty, there is no one there. just an empty boat that collided with you.

that is what I found in others at church - they were all empty. nothing there. just like little kids, blank stares, deer in headlights - nothing inside, completely empty. illusions. just fog. nothing there...

TBM's - to just leave them there in their house of smoke and mirrors? chained there in that illusion? my m.i.l. - dementia, she isn't waking up from the dream, some never wake up. I want to believe everyone has the same potential - to wake up, to escape plato's cave. the transition cannot be given by another though, has to come from within - have to claim it yourself. authority given by another isn't real authority. it is sad, to see those who never take that step into reality.

https://youtu.be/69F7GhASOdM?si=nhxyShx57HpIklqa

those inside the cave cannot see those who are outside.

Burst the bubble.
no bubbles, no caves.

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 5:19 pm ... the Pope decided that priests can bless same-sex couples....

Back to the OP.

forbidden love. Romeo and Juliet. To choose each other above societal norms and familial expectations. the power of love - can love transcend societal constraints?

to stand against societal prejudices, discrimination, and family rejection - perhaps your family wasn't so great, but you find it within yourself to create a new family, one that works. To stand up for yourself, to stand up for others, to stand against it all, with the one you love. these are the words of fairy tales.

To those in the LGBTQ community - honor and praise. they have claimed their own authority. they haven't given up on love, instead they are showing us all what real love is.

Happy MLK Day.
Happy Catholics are now blessing LGBTQ community day.

all we need is love.
unconditional, authentic, not following orders - but defy the orders, from within - genuine love.

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 10:10 pm What is bullying about not laughing at a poorly made joke calling all mormons proselyters of hate?
...

Bold underline edit my "me"

There you go again Elephante - putting words into the Penguin's flippers.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 12:41 pm

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 10:10 pm What is bullying about not laughing at a poorly made joke calling all mormons proselyters of hate?
...

Bold underline edit my "me"

There you go again Elephante - putting words into the Penguin's flippers.

So you are saying the penguin agrees with me? All saints are not hateful missionaries of hatred toward gays? He was just making a bigoted joke and you think its funny? Is that correct?

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 12:49 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 12:41 pm

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 10:10 pm What is bullying about not laughing at a poorly made joke calling all mormons proselyters of hate?
...

Bold underline edit my "me"

There you go again Elephante - putting words into the Penguin's flippers.

So you are saying the penguin agrees with me? All saints are not hateful missionaries of hatred toward gays? He was just making a bigoted joke and you think its funny? Is that correct?

Nope, I'm pointing out that the penguin never typed "all saints"

Nor did he type "all mormons"

You did.

You're all about semantics and evidence when it comes to others, yet you can't live up to your own rules.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 1:31 pm

Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 12:49 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 12:41 pm
Bold underline edit my "me"

There you go again Elephante - putting words into the Penguin's flippers.

So you are saying the penguin agrees with me? All saints are not hateful missionaries of hatred toward gays? He was just making a bigoted joke and you think its funny? Is that correct?

Nope, I'm pointing out that the penguin never typed "all saints"

Nor did he type "all mormons"

You did.

You're all about semantics and evidence when it comes to others, yet you can't live up to your own rules.

Great. So the penguin meant to disparage some saints, but not all of them? Does he agree with that?