NOM

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:21 pm I guess another thing that has been new is my shifting political viewpoint. I used to be a hardcore Republican, but now find many of my viewpoints are more broad and multi-faceted than before the shelf broke. So in political discussions its not the agree-fest it used to be. The point is, she is having to deal with a spouse that is changing a lot in a short amount of time and I can see how that is not easy for her.

It's not easy for the spouse, that's for sure. If you don't know my backstory, my shelf broke and I eventually told my wife and she eventually left. But it caused A LOT of heartache along the way. I made lots of mistakes. Problem is, it's uncharted waters so I had no idea what to do.

Try to put yourself in her shoes. It's hard, but usually helps.

I think the best general approach is sincere honesty. You can say "It's a bunch of B.S., look right here, can you believe they said that?" or you can say "Honey, I'd really like to talk with you about XYZ, this very important to me" - That's what I wish I did differently.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:24 pm 2. There is an argument I have no valid response to: compare what Mormon kids are doing and accomplishing with what non-religious kids are doing and accomplishing. At least in the area i am living in, the bell curve of kids that have some religious belief (primarily LDS and Some kind of Christian) are: better behaved, less likely to do drugs, less likely to be having sex they aren't prepared to handle, get higher grades, are the leaders in their schools and teams, etc. etc. DW's argument is that no religion at all is not really some panacea to be pursued. Then she challenges me to find a religion that we can switch to that has no flaws or fewer enough flaws to be worth alienating every member of our family and all our friends over. I still have no good response to this...

My old boss (raised Catholic) used to say "a religion is a great thing to grow out of," meaning that it helps kids develop discipline and morals but at some point we need to start living our own lives and thinking for ourselves. The problem is that we come from a religion that doesn't let anyone grow up. No grown up movies, beverages or language or ideas for us. Maybe you don't have to dump all of your reasons on your wife. Maybe you should ask her something very high level, like whether she would pray to Mecca five times a day if she didn't believe in Islam. What if everyone around her expected her to do it? What if she really wished she could want to do it but she just couldn't force herself to believe in Islam no matter how hard she tried? What advice would she want to hear?

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:19 pm

slavereeno wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:24 pm 2. There is an argument I have no valid response to: compare what Mormon kids are doing and accomplishing with what non-religious kids are doing and accomplishing. At least in the area i am living in, the bell curve of kids that have some religious belief (primarily LDS and Some kind of Christian) are: better behaved, less likely to do drugs, less likely to be having sex they aren't prepared to handle, get higher grades, are the leaders in their schools and teams, etc. etc. DW's argument is that no religion at all is not really some panacea to be pursued. Then she challenges me to find a religion that we can switch to that has no flaws or fewer enough flaws to be worth alienating every member of our family and all our friends over. I still have no good response to this...

My old boss (raised Catholic) used to say "a religion is a great thing to grow out of," meaning that it helps kids develop discipline and morals but at some point we need to start living our own lives and thinking for ourselves. The problem is that we come from a religion that doesn't let anyone grow up. No grown up movies, beverages or language or ideas for us. Maybe you don't have to dump all of your reasons on your wife. Maybe you should ask her something very high level, like whether she would pray to Mecca five times a day if she didn't believe in Islam. What if everyone around her expected her to do it? What if she really wished she could want to do it but she just couldn't force herself to believe in Islam no matter how hard she tried? What advice would she want to hear?

Your boss sounds like Fowler.

Good non mormon kids are out there. I grew up in northern Utah, and my three best friends where all non mormons. My parents got crap all the time because i didnt hang out with the boys on my ward...until they all got busted for joy riding in a "borrowed" car and shop lifting. My friends where the best, until they "found jesus" and got super evangelical and i had to get serioud about a mission. I dont think kids (particularly teens) take religion very serious-its more who they are around and how they try to impress each other that says of theyll be "good kids".

mooseman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:52 pm Good non mormon kids are out there.

Otherwise 99.9% of the world are "bad" people and all of the good things done in the world would be from the "good" Mormon kids who grew up to be the great leaders. Let's see... Gandhi, Einstein, Lincoln, Mandella, King, all Mormons, right? Anybody want to want to hold the accomplishments of Thomas Monson (once Little Tommy) up against these guys?

mooseman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:52 pm Good non mormon kids are out there. I grew up in northern Utah

Hmmm what part? I did some hard Mormon time in Tremonton when I was young, the culture there was toxic.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:58 amOtherwise 99.9% of the world are "bad" people and all of the good things done in the world would be from the "good" Mormon kids who grew up to be the great leaders. Let's see... Gandhi, Einstein, Lincoln, Mandella, King, all Mormons, right? Anybody want to want to hold the accomplishments of Thomas Monson (once Little Tommy) up against these guys?

This lends credence to BriansThoughtMirror's concept that When the Mormon population exceeds a certain percentage it actually become toxic to the community. While I know this is true and I think DW knows this is true, we are fighting against over 40 years of us vs them indoctrination.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:48 am This lends credence to BriansThoughtMirror's concept that When the Mormon population exceeds a certain percentage it actually become toxic to the community.

I can't say whether or not this is really true, I just have anecdotes. I do know it's hard for me to live in Mormon-dom, and a good number of non-Mormons I know here have had difficulties, too. One friend who moved here from Chicago says he really loves it here, but the longer he's been here the more inclusion problems he's noticed, especially for his kids. One of my wife's friends, also from the midwest, moved here and had some really negative experiences in a homogeneous Mormon town. They finally moved because they couldn't stand it, and they are really nice, open, tolerant people! My guess is that the more homogeneous a community's culture is (maybe not just Mormon communities), the less the community members will know how to really include outsiders. It's hurtful, even though it's not deliberate. It's all anecdotal, of course, so I can't say for tsure that these experiences are representative of anything, but they might be. I also didn't grow up in a Mormon community, so it's hard for me to say what it would be like for a kid.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:24 pm Had a bit of a spat about my bringing green tea into the cupboard.

TL;DR version: If I live a 110% TBM existence in all ways apart from my actual belief, things can work out and DW can achieve some level of non-misery.

My questions:

1. Trying to "take things slow," as is often advocated, has led to anxiety to the tune of "I don't know what your going to spring on me next." So is taking things slow even a good approach? Maybe better to lay it all out and be done with it. Come home with a pack of cigs, some malt liquor, a hooker and a dead body and say "This is the new me!"

2. There is an argument I have no valid response to: compare what Mormon kids are doing and accomplishing with what non-religious kids are doing and accomplishing. At least in the area i am living in, the bell curve of kids that have some religious belief (primarily LDS and Some kind of Christian) are: better behaved, less likely to do drugs, less likely to be having sex they aren't prepared to handle, get higher grades, are the leaders in their schools and teams, etc. etc. DW's argument is that no religion at all is not really some panacea to be pursued. Then she challenges me to find a religion that we can switch to that has no flaws or fewer enough flaws to be worth alienating every member of our family and all our friends over. I still have no good response to this...

3. Does edging out send confusing and conflicting messages to the kids if we aren't going to be upfront about it, will they even understand?

4. Our RM son is freaking awesome, a lot more awesome than he was before the mission. What is a similar experience we can send our other kids to that will build such character. His cousin that decided not to go on a mission is a train wreck. Its anecdotal, but I have no counter example to give her...

5. My uncle is an alcoholic, he lives a miserable existence just waiting to die. Should I be all anxious to pull the trigger on the genetic Russian roulette of alcoholism?

I can dis on the church and know that there wasn't a Nephi all I want, but dammit its hard to deny some of the things they get right. I know not all things good are unique to the church but DW asks where else are we going to find the pieces we want in a one stop shop? Beats the hell out of me. Its kind of like, its an ugly, wart covered mutt, but its our ugly, wart covered mutt.

I am in the same spot with my family and wife. I have learned that this is the reason I am on this site instead of exmo Reddit. Because I am willing to acknowledge this. Mormonism. Really can produce a good product provided the conditions are just right. But I think we need to let go of the one stop shop mentality. Could I get all my crap at Walmart mart? Sure. Will some of it be crap? Yup. Do I really want to shop at only one spot my whole life? Nope. Sure the church is a mutt, but you don't need to kick it out when you get another dog. At some point maybe you can give it away, but accept that today is not that day.

I will reiterate what a lot here are saying. Selection bias. There are plenty of good kids out there with awesome parents. But they typically have awesome parents.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:24 pm Had a bit of a spat about my bringing green tea into the cupboard.

TL;DR version: If I live a 110% TBM existence in all ways apart from my actual belief, things can work out and DW can achieve some level of non-misery.

My questions:

1. Trying to "take things slow," as is often advocated, has led to anxiety to the tune of "I don't know what your going to spring on me next." So is taking things slow even a good approach? Maybe better to lay it all out and be done with it. Come home with a pack of cigs, some malt liquor, a hooker and a dead body and say "This is the new me!"

I also advocate having a good reason for any action that's counter to LDS culture and belief, and always discussing it with your spouse first.

Also, I don't think pulling away from the LDS church should be a goal in and of itself. Pulling away as a goal is often implicit in the advice to take it slow, and it can become the primary goal if you're not careful. Instead, the goal should be to maximize happiness.

To a spouse who strongly identifies with the church, pulling away from the church for its own sake feels like pulling away from your spouse for its own sake. Your spouse will inevitably feel some loss when you act against LDS culture and belief for any reason. It's best to not compound this with feelings of fear and betrayal.

On the other hand, telling your spouse that you believe that doing something or not doing something will make your life better can go down a lot easier. It'll still hurt, and there's no getting around that. Your spouse will probably believe very differently about the outcome, and you can't get around that, either. But at least your spouse can feel safe, and can feel like your relationship is stable.

Early in my faith transition, I promised my wife that I wouldn't spring things on her. We'd talk about changes first, and I'd give her plenty of lead time. Keeping to that, I've made two major lifestyle changes. I stopped attending church for my emotional health, and started drinking coffee for my physical and mental health. I researched the latter extensively first. (It's working really well, too.) My wife is okay with both.

On her own, after I stopped attending, she took the LDS-specific art off our walls. She did it because she wanted to make things easier for me after I blew up about Elder Ballard claiming that the church doesn't hide things - so... not the greatest reason. On the plus side, in doing it, she was considering how exposure to LDS thought can affect me, which she wouldn't have done if we hadn't discussed it already. I told her I was happy to have the temple picture back up because where we were married is important to me, but I guess she hasn't gotten around to it.

(Now that I think about it, I should probably just hang it up. Sometimes good relationshippy ideas take me a while to come up with.)

She cried when I told her I was going to try coffee for health reasons. This was partly my fault for not being clear that I was only going to drink it at work. She had had a hard day, and the idea of explaining it to the kids and buying coffee-making stuff was just overwhelming. Even without that, though, my drinking coffee is an investment in and a declaration of being an outsider, which hurt her. But we set aside Saturday morning for breakfast together at a place where I can get a nice cappuccino, and she helped me brainstorm cheap, healthy methods of caffeine delivery at home.

(Geez. My wife is awesome.)

So I advocate taking it slow, having good reasons, and discussing everything. There's no way I'll promise that this approach is the best, will work, or will even help. (I understand very well that I won the jackpot at spousal roulette in this regard.) But it definitely can't hurt.

From my POV, based on me leaving before DW:

1. Trying to "take things slow," ...
I had revealed over time here a little, there a little. Some things were a bit of a shock, like when I revealed I was having doubts and questions. The time I revealed I'd had a beer with friends at lunch at work. It caused her a lot of dissonance. Before she quit believing, she was the one to suggest we were paying too much tithing and reduced it. After those things came out, I increased my dedication and love to her, kept quiet for the most part, then let her new cogdis grow like a mustard seed. At times when it came up, I expressed my true emotional pain over the matter, showing how truly conflicted I was, backing it up with assurance that I would continue to go and participate for the rest of my days as long as it was important to her and she believed in it.

2. There is an argument I have no valid response to: compare what Mormon kids are doing and accomplishing with what non-religious kids are doing and accomplishing.
Okay, so this one is really impossible to address without some significant social study and a decent sampling of the population. My own son, who did not go on a mission, moved out of his mom's house and far out of state right after high school. He's been out on his own, working odd jobs, had owned 3 used cars, pays his own rent, hangs out with friends, plays in a band, travels to Florida for a couple of months on a job, has been out to Utah a couple of times. He's not doing college yet, but he's mapping out a career for himself and learning great life skills. How would his life have been different if he'd served an LDS mission? I have no idea. Yes a mission provides a growth opportunity, but so do many other things. I'd suggest you tell your DW that it's a complex situation to know if the mission makes or breaks kid's future success. There will be cased where it really helps and others where it was detrimental. Bottom line is, society as a whole, across the globe is improving (https://ourworldindata.org/). Can this be attributed to the growth in the LDS church? Kids going on missions? I think the numbers suggest otherwise because the church, let alone kids that serve missions, only makes up 0.2% of the total population. It may have impact here in Morcor, but not anywhere else.

3. Does edging out send confusing and conflicting messages to the kids if we aren't going to be upfront about it, will they even understand?
My kids were very understanding when we finally made the announcement. It really only mattered to one kids because the rest were already out. Our 15 year old was so relieved and happy because she didn't believe it anyway. Honest with the kids is the best policy, but also don't dump on them. Each will take it differently and age obviously plays in. Be honest, but don't dump the laundry basket on them. Keeping a loving safe home for them is priority one. I'd try to shield your conflict with DW. Just MHO.

4. See 2

5. My bio dad was alcoholic, so I was cautious about consumption. Has not been a problem. About 10% of the population is predisposed to some type of addiction, be it diet coke, drugs, or booze. As long as you never feel like you NEED a drink to try and drown out some emotions and drinking is just social or just because you feel like it, you'll be okay. Just be aware if you feel you are slipping or using it as a crutch.

DW asks where else are we going to find the pieces we want in a one stop shop?

So this is the mindset of those plugged into the matrix. They don't want to figure out the real world for themselves, it's easier to be given all the answers and be told what to do all the time. It's not a comfortable place (at first) being out in the great unknown with no more answers to the purpose of life. This gave me a lot of cogdis when I was thinking of making an exit. It took me a while to be okay with not having the answers, to be on path of discovery with a knowledge I may never have some answers. I'm okay with that now. The trade off was freedom of the mind and another weekend day to enjoy the great outdoors or just time with the family. I love my life more with less dread and no more guilt; it's so liberating! You find out you don't need their stupid made up answers! You can just live life and find so much more happiness in it. There is no other religion or pseudo science that will best the LDS religion because they all exist in the same world of BS! Religion is on the decline, but the world, according to raw data, is getting better. Is there a correlation there?
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slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:42 am

mooseman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:52 pm Good non mormon kids are out there. I grew up in northern Utah

Hmmm what part? I did some hard Mormon time in Tremonton when I was young, the culture there was toxic.

Davis co. Layton specifically. Tremonton would be toxic i think cause of how small it is.

I worry about what will happen to my kiddos in some way without the Church. Then i counter that in my mind with how awesome a lot of people are, and most people people aren't Mormon.

If you are over the age of 30 and haven't drank. The likely hood of you becoming addicted is incredibly low. Your neural pathways are fairly set, they won't change dramatically few a drink or two.

Keep on trucking. My mom's face had a similar expression when she saw the K-cup machine in the corner of my kitchen. Funny thing is, it is DW's (I hate coffee and I don't want to give Starbucks execs any more bonuses).