Two Steps Back...

[slavereeno]

Had a bit of a spat about my bringing green tea into the cupboard.

TL;DR version: If I live a 110% TBM existence in all ways apart from my actual belief, things can work out and DW can achieve some level of non-misery.

My questions:

1. Trying to "take things slow," as is often advocated, has led to anxiety to the tune of "I don't know what your going to spring on me next." So is taking things slow even a good approach? Maybe better to lay it all out and be done with it. Come home with a pack of cigs, some malt liquor, a hooker and a dead body and say "This is the new me!"

2. There is an argument I have no valid response to: compare what Mormon kids are doing and accomplishing with what non-religious kids are doing and accomplishing. At least in the area i am living in, the bell curve of kids that have some religious belief (primarily LDS and Some kind of Christian) are: better behaved, less likely to do drugs, less likely to be having sex they aren't prepared to handle, get higher grades, are the leaders in their schools and teams, etc. etc. DW's argument is that no religion at all is not really some panacea to be pursued. Then she challenges me to find a religion that we can switch to that has no flaws or fewer enough flaws to be worth alienating every member of our family and all our friends over. I still have no good response to this...

3. Does edging out send confusing and conflicting messages to the kids if we aren't going to be upfront about it, will they even understand?

4. Our RM son is freaking awesome, a lot more awesome than he was before the mission. What is a similar experience we can send our other kids to that will build such character. His cousin that decided not to go on a mission is a train wreck. Its anecdotal, but I have no counter example to give her...

5. My uncle is an alcoholic, he lives a miserable existence just waiting to die. Should I be all anxious to pull the trigger on the genetic Russian roulette of alcoholism?

I can dis on the church and know that there wasn't a Nephi all I want, but dammit its hard to deny some of the things they get right. I know not all things good are unique to the church but DW asks where else are we going to find the pieces we want in a one stop shop? Beats the hell out of me. Its kind of like, its an ugly, wart covered mutt, but its our ugly, wart covered mutt.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

First things first on point 1. I believe it should be "dead hooker" rather than "hooker and a dead body".

[slavereeno]

First things first on point 1. I believe it should be "dead hooker" rather than "hooker and a dead body".

Dead, Male, Hooker; Three birds, one stone...

[BriansThoughtMirror]

I'm originally from the East coast, but I now live in Utah. I knew LOTS of really great kids of other religions and plenty of no religion when I was in high school. Unfortunately, I didn't allow myself to be very close with them because they had "different standards". Barf. Those kids are out there! Now, I'm like you- I have no idea how to produce these smart, kind, well adjusted kids without the church. I'm sure as hell gonna try, though, dammit!

I wonder if what you're seeing is the result of:
1) Selection Bias. Are you less likely to know the good non-Mormon kids in the area? Is it possible there are systematic reasons that you would not know them? For example, your kids hang out with only LDS kids? Do you have non-LDS friends? Do you just spend a lot of time in church-related settings? (By the way, I'm asking myself these questions at the same time.)
2) More Selection Bias. Are you more likely to hear about bad kids who are not Mormon? Other Mormons like to point those things out, the more sensational the better.
3) I wonder if non-Mormon kids in a heavily Mormon dominated population might end up kind of mal-adjusted, especially if they don't have some other kind of community. In non-Mormon-heavy areas, I think kids connect through extra-curricular activities, and... I don't know, what else? I want to know this, too. It can hurt for a kid to feel like a social outcast or a stigmatized, misunderstood minority. I love Utah for a lot of reasons, but I don't know that I want my kids to grow up here...

Let me know what you come up with! Are there any books that would help, maybe?

[BriansThoughtMirror]

By the way, your kids could join the Peace Corps, or do any number of really rewarding things! I wish like hell I had had options like that. A mission was the only possible path. Of course, if I hadn't gone on a mission (a painfully eye-opening experience), I probably wouldn't be on NOM right now!

[Linked]

These situations suck all around. My experiences and thoughts on your situation are bullet-ed below.

1. I have been taking it slow since I unloaded my current state of belief on my wife 3 years ago, and I think we are finally reaping some rewards. I occasionally shop on Sundays with no visible frustration. I am taking my son to a dinosaur expo on a Sunday and he is skipping church with no tears from DW. The biggest reward that can't be overstated is that I am still married, and the removal of the cloud of unhappiness in our marriage. Not to say that other paths may also bring happiness, but the reward of going slow is staying married for me.

2. This is a complex issue. I don't have enough data, and I doubt your wife has enough data, to really tell which religious/non-religious group has the best outcomes and why. Also, the definition of best outcomes is subjective. To play devil's advocate to your list: better behaved by itself isn't a good outcome, safe drug use enhances our experiences, prepare the kids for sex and let them safely enjoy and share one of life's great pleasures with partners they deem worthy, grades aren't a great measuring stick, are they leaders because they are popular and are they popular because they are similar to the other kids? Also, there are countries full of kids where mormons are the vast minority and those kids do just fine; like Japan where I served my mission. Most of the world are not practicing mormons and do fine. Much of the world doesn't put as much effort into religion as TBMs and do fine. But these are pithy statements for people who agree with them and won't do much to convince someone who disagrees.

3. There are plenty of kids who go to church sometimes, though I agree that it would be better not to confuse them. Be open and honest with them about what you are doing and why.

4. The peace corps might be an option for getting similar results to a mission. There is definitely something to putting a huge effort into helping others. With the mission it is just fake help. There are lots of other options too, https://www.volunteerforever.com/articl ... s-projects.

5. Don't become an alcoholic, that is way worse than being a mormon. But if you can drink some then I think it is worth testing it out to see if it enhances your life. If not, no biggie. I'm not sure how to know if you are extra susceptible to alcoholism.

[lostinmiddlemormonism]

1. Trying to "take things slow," as is often advocated, has led to anxiety to the tune of "I don't know what your going to spring on me next." So is taking things slow even a good approach? Maybe better to lay it all out and be done with it. Come home with a pack of cigs, some malt liquor, a hooker and a dead body and say "This is the new me!"
[\quote]

It sounds like you have bought into the false premise that it is either or. It's not. People evolve. I think honesty is a good policy. Just because someone leaves the church doesn't mean that they are going to start drinking. Some do, some don't. Same with any other choice. That is an important discussion to have.

2. There is an argument I have no valid response to: compare what Mormon kids are doing and accomplishing with what non-religious kids are doing and accomplishing. At least in the area i am living in, the bell curve of kids that have some religious belief (primarily LDS and Some kind of Christian) are: better behaved, less likely to do drugs, less likely to be having sex they aren't prepared to handle, get higher grades, are the leaders in their schools and teams, etc. etc. DW's argument is that no religion at all is not really some panacea to be pursued. Then she challenges me to find a religion that we can switch to that has no flaws or fewer enough flaws to be worth alienating every member of our family and all our friends over. I still have no good response to this...

Wait, is she saying that the reason to stay in a religion, to give it your loyalty, time, and money is because your friends and family will leave you if you don't? The good response is that if that is the reason you are staying in a church it's a pretty piss poor reason, and if that accurately describes your friends or family then 1. They aren't you friends nor good family members, and 2. If that is how they would behave if you left then the church sure hasn't helped them to be better people has it?
Not sure I fully comprehend this question.

[slavereeno]

I wonder if what you're seeing is the result of:
1) Selection Bias. Are you less likely to know the good non-Mormon kids in the area? Is it possible there are systematic reasons that you would not know them? For example, your kids hang out with only LDS kids? Do you have non-LDS friends? Do you just spend a lot of time in church-related settings? (By the way, I'm asking myself these questions at the same time.)
2) More Selection Bias. Are you more likely to hear about bad kids who are not Mormon? Other Mormons like to point those things out, the more sensational the better.

Absolutely this is selection bias. Here is the example, my kids are in band. About half of the band are LDS, another quarter or so are Christian, the rest fairly non-religious in general. All but one or two of the Mormon kids are respectful, courteous, kind, blah, blah, blah... Most of the Christian kids are the same for the most part. The kids whose parents believe in and have taught nothing at home (because they have no framework to work from?) are the ones causing problems, with one or two exceptions. This is completely anecdotal, I personally won't argue that, but its close to home. Its easy for DW to find other examples in choir, sports teams, etc. I am merely stating that I am unable to provide actual real examples in my life to demonstrate the counterpoint. Yes we have a friend here or there that is non-religious that has great values and a friend or two that is LDS that is an asshat, but the numbers, at least in my area are not working to my advantage.

3) I wonder if non-Mormon kids in a heavily Mormon dominated population might end up kind of mal-adjusted, especially if they don't have some other kind of community. In non-Mormon-heavy areas, I think kids connect through extra-curricular activities, and... I don't know, what else? I want to know this, too. It can hurt for a kid to feel like a social outcast or a stigmatized, misunderstood minority. I love Utah for a lot of reasons, but I don't know that I want my kids to grow up here...

Let me know what you come up with! Are there any books that would help, maybe?

I am trying to advocate treating non-LDS friends and acquaintances with respect. Mormons think the only good people are other Mormons and people who will become Mormons, its super annoying and drags the whole community down. I have siblings who are TBM and live outside of the Mormon bubble and I think they actually have a better perspective on this.

[slavereeno]

1. I have been taking it slow since I unloaded my current state of belief on my wife 3 years ago, and I think we are finally reaping some rewards. I occasionally shop on Sundays with no visible frustration. I am taking my son to a dinosaur expo on a Sunday and he is skipping church with no tears from DW. The biggest reward that can't be overstated is that I am still married, and the removal of the cloud of unhappiness in our marriage. Not to say that other paths may also bring happiness, but the reward of going slow is staying married for me.

Well, I can hope for some changes then maybe in the future. Its not yet been quite a year since this has been out in the open. I think DW is just worried the rabbit hole is a bottomless pit.

2. This is a complex issue. I don't have enough data, and I doubt your wife has enough data, to really tell which religious/non-religious group has the best outcomes and why. Also, the definition of best outcomes is subjective.

I agree, the data I am working from is limited, it is however close and "real" in the sense that we live it every day. As for the devil's advocate list, I have to agree with my wife. I really don't want my kids experimenting with drugs, alcohol and sex when they are in their formative years. The stakes are high and could have lasting repercussions. Just because some religion says something is wrong doesn't make it good now just because I no longer believe in religion. A good example is the alcohol thing, we had a neighbor kid nevermo who actually died of alcohol poisoning in their back yard at a graduation party that included alcohol. The parents had supplied the alcohol for the party and this event destroyed the family.

3. There are plenty of kids who go to church sometimes, though I agree that it would be better not to confuse them. Be open and honest with them about what you are doing and why.

I would like to get there. To keep the peace right now open and honest aren't part of the playbook.

4. The peace corps might be an option for getting similar results to a mission. There is definitely something to putting a huge effort into helping others. With the mission it is just fake help. There are lots of other options too, https://www.volunteerforever.com/articl ... s-projects.

I'll look into that, DW of course has a lot less trust in "less structured" service opportunities. My Grandfather never served a mission but did work in the peace corps for a while, so I actually have a family precedent. I also wonder if sending a kid away to college can possibly have a similar effect? I agree though about the mission being mostly fake help. I wish missions were all about service and not about baptisms, baptisms, baptisms..

5. Don't become an alcoholic, that is way worse than being a mormon. But if you can drink some then I think it is worth testing it out to see if it enhances your life. If not, no biggie. I'm not sure how to know if you are extra susceptible to alcoholism.

Well not a decision I am prepared to make right now anyway.

[slavereeno]

It sounds like you have bought into the false premise that it is either or. It's not. People evolve. I think honesty is a good policy. Just because someone leaves the church doesn't mean that they are going to start drinking. Some do, some don't. Same with any other choice. That is an important discussion to have.

I actually looked up some NOM groups in my area on Facebook. There were only about 5 people who had joined the NOM group in my area and I knew most of them. Unfortunately, the ones DW and I know are not going to win me ANY points for my side of the argument, with kids who dropped out of school because they got pregnant, or have kids that live at home and aren't going to school or getting a job etc. I know judging these people for these things is wrong. That doesn't make it easier to use them in arguments over the virtues of leaving Mormonism...

That being said my son has a good non-religious friend from Europe who is a wonderful person, but her parents are strict and teach and espouse most of the same values that the religious types do. Things like no serious relationships in high school, group dating in high school, no drugs, no alcohol, respect your elders and all that stuff.

The big challenge in our discussions is how do we transition out of religion without us, our children or our grandchildren espousing a kind of hedonism that seems to be a wellspring of pain. Yeah the church causes some pain, and DW admits it, but her big question is "Is the pain worse than the alternative?"

[MalcolmVillager]

You make good points. I am in a similar boat. I wish there were a better answer. The problem is that humans are tribal.

I recently listened to The Liturgists Podcast, #5 about Spiral Dynamics. It is sort of a colorful version of Fowlers Stages of Faith that applies not only to individuals but to communities, tribes, etc... The reality is that our tribes have a culture we cannot change, for if we do, we are labelled as an outsider/threat and lose all standing.

I hate it.

Yet there is much good in Mormonism. I can see it in my life, in my family, in my converts in Argentina, in my kids. Why does it have to come with the lies, the political crap, the overreaching?

I try to tell myself that I can live it my way, but the reality is that formally and informally, the church and the community don't allow nuance. They don't accept the middle way. It is a threat to everything they stand for.

So here we are brother. I am lucky to have a wife who is changing a bit and not so strict. Going slow has worked for me. She has wondered what boundary I will try to push next. I can see how the slow slide to hell could be a threat to those watching a loved one go slow. Yet when you go fast or claim you have made your decision, it forces the TBM to change dramatically and I have seen the divorce and shunning that can cause.

Here's to the slow burn!

[Kishkumen]

Had a bit of a spat about my bringing green tea into the cupboard.

TL;DR version: If I live a 110% TBM existence in all ways apart from my actual belief, things can work out and DW can achieve some level of non-misery.

My questions:

1. Trying to "take things slow," as is often advocated, has led to anxiety to the tune of "I don't know what your going to spring on me next." So is taking things slow even a good approach? Maybe better to lay it all out and be done with it. Come home with a pack of cigs, some malt liquor, a hooker and a dead body and say "This is the new me!"

2. There is an argument I have no valid response to: compare what Mormon kids are doing and accomplishing with what non-religious kids are doing and accomplishing. At least in the area i am living in, the bell curve of kids that have some religious belief (primarily LDS and Some kind of Christian) are: better behaved, less likely to do drugs, less likely to be having sex they aren't prepared to handle, get higher grades, are the leaders in their schools and teams, etc. etc. DW's argument is that no religion at all is not really some panacea to be pursued. Then she challenges me to find a religion that we can switch to that has no flaws or fewer enough flaws to be worth alienating every member of our family and all our friends over. I still have no good response to this...

3. Does edging out send confusing and conflicting messages to the kids if we aren't going to be upfront about it, will they even understand?

4. Our RM son is freaking awesome, a lot more awesome than he was before the mission. What is a similar experience we can send our other kids to that will build such character. His cousin that decided not to go on a mission is a train wreck. Its anecdotal, but I have no counter example to give her...

5. My uncle is an alcoholic, he lives a miserable existence just waiting to die. Should I be all anxious to pull the trigger on the genetic Russian roulette of alcoholism?

I can dis on the church and know that there wasn't a Nephi all I want, but dammit its hard to deny some of the things they get right. I know not all things good are unique to the church but DW asks where else are we going to find the pieces we want in a one stop shop? Beats the hell out of me. Its kind of like, its an ugly, wart covered mutt, but its our ugly, wart covered mutt.

1. My opinion is to rip off the bandaid, but don't replace it with a new wound. Hookers and blow all in good time.
2. The challenge here is lifestyle debate vs ideology debate. There are people that do good things and bad things, regardless of faith affiliation. There are people that believe good things and bad things regardless of faith affiliation. Unfortunately, it seems to be an argument of apples vs oranges, and it's very difficult to explain the difference. LDS Culture is entirely focused on "fruits" of their works.
3. My opinion is generally edging out doesn't send mixed messages, it just becomes the norm and kids don't distinguish between mom believes and dad doesn't. It becomes Mom does this and dad does that. Kids aren't torn ideologically.
4. Military, Peace Corps, College Fraternity/Sorority, etc. There's lots of things, but LDS culture can only see one - Proselytizing Mission Work. This is a tricky one, you'll have to do some homework.
5. You can live a completely fulfilling life without alcohol. Yes, it can be fun, but a fermented evening doesn't hold a candle to fun family night activity. And booze is expensive. And drinking alone is very boring. Maybe a long term goal of compromise is acceptance of drinks at work parties, going out with friends, special occasions, etc.

Trying to explain - Everything good about the church is not unique and everying unique is not necessarily good is a uphill battle.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

Mormons think the only good people are other Mormons and people who will become Mormons, its super annoying and drags the whole community down. I have siblings who are TBM and live outside of the Mormon bubble and I think they actually have a better perspective on this.

I really think there is something to this. In Mormon dominated areas, non-religious people are the most stigmatized outsiders (barring staunch anti-Mos, of course). Mormons do think they are the best, and then they think other people of faith can be pretty good. They really look down on the non-religious, and have a hard time finding anything in common. Being a stigmatized minority is hard- it wastes mental and emotional resources, and it can leave a person feeling bitter and excluded. Mormons can be hard to be around! I can only guess that this hurts a person's sense of community, which is a big factor in developing morality. Have you ever read "Bowling Alone"?

My point is that maybe these kids are acting up because they feel like rejected outsiders. If they feel mistreated by the people around them, why be nice to them? It may also just be coincidence, or as we both agreed, some sort of sampling error. I swear, there are plenty of good non-religious kids out there. They probably don't obey all the "commandments", but they still learn to be kind, empathetic, generous, ethical, and they generally learn to make smart decisions and good use of their lives. I need to find more examples of this, too. I'm lucky that my TBM wife has made at least some non-Mormon friends while working, and has been able to hear how that sort of stigmatization has hurt them. She's also been very empathetic towards me, and recently defended some adult, non-Mormony behaviors of a non-Mormon nephew to my dad, because of tolerance. Now that I think of it, I am lucky! It's been a long hard trip so far, though.

Have you seen this study from the University of Chicago about morality between religious and non-religious kids? They found that non-religious kids were more empathetic, altruistic,and generally kinder than the religious kids. Of course, it's just one study (3 articles about it), so take it for what it's worth:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -altruism/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... kids-study
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropol ... -kindness/

Also, this is fun. People who swear are more honest:
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 12601.html
"The main thing we found is if you filter your language when speaking then you’re probably also filtering what you’re saying as well. You are less likely to be about what you think and more about what you think other people want to hear.
Someone who does not filter their language, so swears, is more likely to be saying what they think to be true so are being more honest and genuine from their perspective."

Disclaimer: I have not scrutinized either of these studies very hard, and they fit my preconceived biases!

Also, here's a couple books I have not read but that are well reviewed and address this topic:
https://www.amazon.com/Raising-Freethin ... 0814410960
https://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Beyond ... YDZQAZ9CS4

I think I've wandered pretty far from you OP at this point. Sorry... I hope you can find some better examples to connect with! I think lack of examples has made my transition pretty hard, too, and I have the same anxieties for my own posterity.

OK, I have to also admit- there are legitimately GOOD things about Mormon culture and many religious cultures. They give people a moral foundation, even if it is a flawed one, and give them role models, responsibility, and a respected role in society (unless you're gay or female, haha). Respect from your community can build confidence and a sense of identity. These are really good for humans. Can we get that another way?

Finally, a quote:
"The foundation of morality should not be made dependent on myth nor tied to any authority lest doubt about the myth or about the legitimacy of the authority imperil the foundation of sound judgment and action.”
-Albert Einstein

I'm now finished imparting everything that was in my head. Thanks for reading.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

I found a counter-analysis for the religion and morality in kids study:
https://www.researchgate.net/blog/post/ ... -after-all

This suggests that the relationship was spurious, and that there's really not much difference in altruism levels between religious and non-religious kids, once you control for other variables. Take it for what you think it's worth.

[Red Ryder]

Well, I can hope for some changes then maybe in the future. Its not yet been quite a year since this has been out in the open. I think DW is just worried the rabbit hole is a bottomless pit.

It can be especially when the spouse suddenly keeps getting surprised. Be honest and discuss boundaries so that you don't have to have tough conversations at midnight about hiding alcohol in your garage.

Seriously though, this is the hardest part of the leaving the church. It does provide structure and good well intentioned people are a product of it.

[alas]

I have been thinking about this because I agree that kids should be taught good values, and religion does seem to teach good values. But here is the glitch when it comes to religion teaching values, the reason given by religion is "don't because God said so." Well, when kids hit the rebellious stage, " because I said so" doesn't work, and "because God said so" is even worse. Kids have experience doing what Mom &Dad say not to do. Like "don't touch the hot stove" and so they learn that M & D know a little bit about what they are talking about. But with "God said so," there usually are not immediate consequences. So, "God said so," is seen as a very weak argument. And kids test to see what happens when they disobey God, just like they do with parents.

You need better arguments than " Because I said so" or "Because God said so," when kids become rebellious young snots....um, teenagers.

This is why you teach your kids critical thinking and why you name the consequences of behavior. Don't screw around before marriage because you can get diseases, and no amount of birth control guarantees no pregnancy, except for the permanent ones you don't want to do before marriage. Don't drink underage because your brain has not finished growing and you will screw up brain development, but you don't know you have killed brain cells after one drunk episode, but after several drunk episodes it show up. Don't smoke because it stunts your growth and causes lung cancer. (I had one uncle who was a misfit among his 10 brothers who were all 6' 2" and above. This uncle was 5' 4". Why? because he started smoking at 13.) So, you tell kids the real reason they should or should not do something. For example, there really is no good reason that science has found for not drinking coffee, except for children who you do not want to give even more energy. So you be honest about that, because there is no reason that we know about other than the church says so. But if you want a temple recommend without telling a lie, then do as the church says. (I do not believe this is one God says not to, just that the church says not to) And teen kids will see that there is no good reason for not drinking coffee, and decide there is no good reason for the smoking rule either. So, you give your kids the reason for the rule and be honest about the things that "God" seems to want that have no justification.

An example of this idea of the reason for the rule, the church makes all kinds of stupid reasons for the ban on gay marriage. And anyone with a brain can see that the reasons are excuses. If straights are better off in a loving committed relationship rather than single and alone, then gays are also better off in a loving committed relationship. It really has nothing to do with baby making or parenting. The real reason comes down to, " Because God said so." So, if you believe in God, that reason might be valid. But if you start to wonder if STRAIGHT men wrote the Bible, or wonder about the existence of God, then that reason falls apart. This was why gay marriage bans lost in SCOTUS, because they are not allowed the "God said so," reason and that was really all the reasons the ban supporters had.

Another example, we taught our kids that the reasons you don't have sex before marriage are 1. Sexually transmitted disease. 2. Pregnancy. 3. Emotional commitment. so, IF you are going to have sex before marriage be aware of the risks. My BIL was much more fanatical about the religion and his kids learned, "don't because God said so". Guess whose family had zero out of wedlock grandkids and whose had two pregnant 15-16 year olds? Yeah, good reasons work so much better than religious indoctrination.

[MerrieMiss]

Regarding the mission:

I’ve never lived in a predominantly Mormon location, so perhaps I just don’t understand, but it seems to me that there are plenty of kids who get messed up from a mission. I have a BIL who came home early, really messed up. Another relative on the other side of the family, same thing (has serious doubts about the church too, from what I hear). My own brother who went on one came home depressed and weird (I always thought he was a little odd, but who knows). Sometimes just living a little and growing up is what matures people.

Getting a job (responsibility, working with others), going to classes (responsibility, learning, meeting people), having a roommate (learning to compromise and get along with others, paying some bills), and then the time factor (a few years of brain growth can do a lot): all of these things contribute to growing up and maturing, mission or not. I’d expect the average twenty-one year old, mission or no, to be more mature and responsible than an eighteen year old.

I guess I don't understand why a program is necessary for maturity instead of living life. Until a few years ago, young women in the church weren't given a program (mission) to grow and learn and mature and become incredible people. Oh right, women were just so amazing anyway, let me get back on that pedestal...

My now NOM parents both believe that strict adherence to church is what set one of my younger siblings off the rails. Church is not good for everyone, missions are not good for everyone, BYU is not good for everyone…

Regarding non-members vs members:

Again, I’ve never lived in a Mormon area so maybe I don’t get it, but there are SO many good people who are not Mormon.

And regardless of what Mormons think, all Mormons believe differently and behave differently. They are all Cafeteria Mormons. Something that has done a lot to help my husband see I’m not weird (for my unorthodoxy) is meeting other Mormons and finding out that they do and believe all sorts of things that he thought were off-limits: R rated movies, coffee flavored desserts, shopping on Sunday, swearing, feminism, skipping church – and all of these things from active, TR holding members. When I mention any of these things he thinks I’m crazy, but when his friend raves about the beer chicken his wife makes, well, maybe we ought to go to their house for dinner sometime.

What I’m trying to say: meet people. All kinds of people, Mormon or not. And be authentic with them and they with you. While there are some real sticklers out there, a lot of people are far more lenient about letting things slide, they just don’t want people to see/know it.

I can only guess that this hurts a person's sense of community, which is a big factor in developing morality. Have you ever read "Bowling Alone"?

I never read that one, but I read Putnam’s more recent work, Our Kids, and in my opinion, the strong sense of community is the most important thing the church (perhaps any church) has to offer. I wish there were other real alternatives. (I know people will say that there are, but really, they pale in comparison. Religious belief binds people and entire families together in ways that other organizations just haven't been able to manage.)

[slavereeno]

Thanks for all the replies!! There have been some very thoughtful responses. Just to clarify, for myself personally I believe that religion is NOT required to teach good values and raise kids in a healthy and happy home. I DO believe that community and morality need to be taught to them. Finding alternatives that we can trust has become a bigger problem.

Yet there is much good in Mormonism. I can see it in my life, in my family, in my converts in Argentina, in my kids. Why does it have to come with the lies, the political crap, the overreaching?

I try to tell myself that I can live it my way, but the reality is that formally and informally, the church and the community don't allow nuance. They don't accept the middle way. It is a threat to everything they stand for.

I am still in the phase of wishing that the church could drop all the crap in my lifetime. Fat chance.

1. My opinion is to rip off the bandaid, but don't replace it with a new wound. Hookers and blow all in good time.

Yeah, I don't want her to live in fear of the next big reveal... problem is since the shelf broke stuff is changing for me all the time.

You need better arguments than " Because I said so" or "Because God said so," when kids become rebellious young snots....um, teenagers.

This entire post is great, and spot on. Instead of "cause god said so" I am hearing the more popular "cause you will lose the spirit" nowadays.

Getting a job (responsibility, working with others), going to classes (responsibility, learning, meeting people), having a roommate (learning to compromise and get along with others, paying some bills), and then the time factor (a few years of brain growth can do a lot): all of these things contribute to growing up and maturing, mission or not. I’d expect the average twenty-one year old, mission or no, to be more mature and responsible than an eighteen year old.

This. But in my ward we had something like 8 RMs return last summer, and I hear nothing from the ward members but how great the mission was for them, blah blah blah... They credit the spiritual aspects of the mission for things that were wrought by the logistic and time aspects of a mission.

[slavereeno]

I guess another thing that has been new is my shifting political viewpoint. I used to be a hardcore Republican, but now find many of my viewpoints are more broad and multi-faceted than before the shelf broke. So in political discussions its not the agree-fest it used to be. The point is, she is having to deal with a spouse that is changing a lot in a short amount of time and I can see how that is not easy for her.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

But in my ward we had something like 8 RMs return last summer, and I hear nothing from the ward members but how great the mission was for them, blah blah blah... They credit the spiritual aspects of the mission for things that were wrought by the logistic and time aspects of a mission.

The mission was a pretty destructive thing for me. I served with honor in the US, and still came home pretty shell shocked. It was traumatic. I was pinned between feeling like a failure (I was not a good religion salesman, try as I might) and wondering if I was part of a cult created by Satan himself. I was terrified either way, and couldn't ever openly explore those feelings. It wasn't good for me. For some, it's great, though, so YMMV.