NOM

So this stirred up some feelings in me. Most people who have had to perform healing blessings need to jump through some mental hoops before giving the blessing. These hoops help to explain why the blessing may not work. But lets look at it from a TBM perspective, given that we should have open minds here.
#1. The podcast puts a very specific expectation on the blessings of healing. The expectation is that the person will be healed to a condition better than they were before they got sick. It is fine to declare it failed if we have the transcript of what the blessing says. The podcast never does say exactly what the blessing blessed them to do. How are we then to say if the examples given were examples of failed blessings? Maybe there is more information that could be provided? The expectations are very narrow, but the context of the blessing could be as wide as a football field is long.

In the case of Eyering's experiences there were no blessings to be had. This seems to be the main problem you have with these experiences Consig. I will grant that the laugh line is super cringey. I didnt like that when I heard the talk the first time in person. To expect complete and utter healing every time an apostle interacts with a sick person is unrealistic. I thought that above all, those who inhabit this board try to be realistic about stuff. True, there are those stories in the bible about miraculous complete and utter healings. But what about all those other people whom they interacted with that might have been sick that didnt get written down? Maybe they didnt get written down because they didnt get healed. Maybe there were so many damn healings going on that there wasnt room in the book to hold them, I dont know. But that is the TBM point, which is a valid point, which is that we dont know. So to go and declare our current Apostles failed Apostles when we really have little information about the context of the situations is hypocritical and wrongheaded IMO.

#2. This is kind of an extension of the first point. We dont know what the timeline is on these blessings. It seems to me that for the purposes of the podcast, only exact and immediate results are sufficient. There is a well developed sense of patience and not expecting God to do stuff according to our will that I used to have, and still have. Who am I to tell God what he can and cant do, whatever my belief in him is? I realize that this is addressed in the argument of Gods will as it relates to healing blessings and the relevance of those blessings, and it is super interesting to me. Frankly it is something I have thought of before right before I used to give blessings. But that is a theological question that could do without all the appeals to emotion that talking about sick people brings up. To say that letting someone die is literally the worst thing that God could do is ignoring a HUGE part of Mormon thought that might be one of the main appeals of the church. The issue of death is a subject that I feel like is intentionally oversimplified in this podcast. Die=bad, live=good is how I feel like you characterize it. Everybody dies, whether they are healed by a blessing or not, so it cant be all bad.

#3. Faith not to be healed. I didnt like this talk when I read it years ago. I read it again the other night. I actually think it is a fairly nice talk now. Bednar actually reads like he has some feelings in this one. I had a long discussion about this with my wife the other night, maybe she will chime in here, maybe not. The point is, you characterize Bednar as kneecapping faith by asking someone to have faith not to be healed. This may be a case of people getting different ideas from the same material. We discussed and came to the conclusion that that was not his intention. His intention was to ask and try to help the couple center their faith around God instead of the Apostles "star power." Isnt this how we would expect an Apostle to act? He didnt go in there strutting his stuff, commanding him to take up his bed and walk by the virtue of the awesomeness of his power, which is how we have all come to view Bednar these days. Instead he went in there and tried to help them prepare for reality, seemed decently humble about it, gave him a blessing, and much to the surprise of all, pulled off a miraculous healing despite the podcast claiming that this never happens these days!

Now I get that we are frustrated that church leaders trumpet the fact that this is Gods church, the same one that Jesus set up, yet it sure doesn't seem to operate in the same way. Heck, it doesn't operate in the same way it did only 75 years ago. It it is super frustrating that the leaders are trying to explain that away by throwing church tradition, scripture, prophets, and even God under the bus. And it is maddening that they are doing it all the while saying that they are the ultimate authority and that they will never be thrown under the bus at a later date. But isnt that what we hope for as NOMS? A move away from the wacky into the realm of reality and the 21st century? Take the blacks and the priesthood thing. We took that move away from prejudice and in the process threw a lot under the bus. I am glad we did.

OK, here's a good one from one of my senior companions when I was a greenie missionary.

In his previous area my companion met a man who claimed to have been crippled before he was healed by a Pentecostal minister. My companion taught and converted this man. He baptized him and, according to my companion, the man had to be carried out of the baptismal font and couldn't walk afterward. My companion was very proud to have been an instrument in removing Satan's healing from this poor guy.

This was one of the biggest WTF moments of my life and I still don't know what to make of it.

Emower wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:02 pmAnd it is maddening that they are doing it all the while saying that they are the ultimate authority and that they will never be thrown under the bus at a later date. But isnt that what we hope for as NOMS? A move away from the wacky into the realm of reality and the 21st century? Take the blacks and the priesthood thing. We took that move away from prejudice and in the process threw a lot under the bus. I am glad we did.

Emower, I totally see what you're saying but there is one big problem. This "miracles that don't look like miracles" concept isn't what we're actually taught day-to-day. We are taught that priesthood is the power of God and that miracles are an important sign of priesthood power. We are told that real healings happen all the time, but they don't tell those stories out of humility. Don't they know that if these things really happened they would be blasted all over FaceBook? If an apostle really walked into a hospital and cured someone's cancer would no one notice?

They still demand that we respect them as having godlike power, and that we believe that we as priesthood holders also have this godlike power that we can actually manifest if we were sufficiently worthy and faithful. Shame is generated by our perception that failure of blessings can be due to the individual priesthood holder's "worthiness" according to the church's mostly arbitrary rules.

Maybe this is Brethren's way of telling us not to expect miracles, that the priesthood doesn't really work that way, that it's an outdated doctrine from which they have moved on. If so they need to stand at the pulpit and TELL us that it applies to us as well as them, but it looks more like they are covering their own asses. Too many of us have promised a loved one in a blessing that they would get well, only to see them continue to suffer, and then blame ourselves because of our unworthiness. I watched my mother die a horrible death when I believed that the Holy Ghost told me to promise her she would recover, but my shortcomings caused the blessing to fail.

I would be so happy if the church really did step back and say, "don't expect anything from us, but also don't revere us as being anything special. Don't imagine that you have magic powers by the virtue of the priesthood. Instead, turn to God for mercy." But that's not what's going on. What's going on is creepy. They are telling us that miracles and non-miracles look identical until The Brethren specifically point out which ones are miracles. This still casts them as mighty doers of miracles (even when nothing happens) and it demeans the members as too stupid to recognize a miracle when they DON'T see it.

If ever the emperor was walking around with his junk dangling, it is now.

I was going to respond to Emower, but I think Hagoth already did.

I will try to add my two cents, though.

First, I really appreciate the fact you (Emower) took the time to listen to the podcast.

You are right that I didn't include the part about Elder Bednar saying "John" had a remission of his cancer for a short while, but then it came back and killed him. (Well, we are left to conclude it killed him although Elder Bednar doesn't specifically say that.)

"John" had additional journal entries trying to deal with the issues the recurrence caused him, like, "Was there something I didn't learn the first time?" "Why is this happening to me again?"

These questions raised overlapping issues that I had already mostly addressed. Additional points I did not make were how Elder Bednar's initial talk with "John" somehow led him to think it was his fault when the cancer came back. Hence his questions.

I also did not mention that Elder Bednar vanishes from the story after the first "blessing." He makes no mention of the recurrence except to say that he learned it had recurred. Did Elder Bednar give a second blessing? I can't tell from the story.

But I did try to lead into the podcast by talking about my first experience with priesthood blessings with my friend's mom, and how what was advertised and testified to by the missionaries was very different from what actually happened.

The church has all but abdicated the idea that any real healings happen through priesthood blessings. See the most recent conference where again people are getting critically injured and dying all over the place in the stories but nobody ever gets healed.

It is so bad that Elder Hallstrom has to say that a guy who falls off a cliff on Mt. Shasta and gets his neck and back broken and two months later is in a back and neck brace is a MIRACLE! No priesthood mentioned. No priesthood necessary.

Fortunate events become miracles now, even just being born.

Now, sure, birth is a miracle of nature, but it is not a miracle of the priesthood. Elder Hallstrom is switching definitions on what constitutes a miracle from what I was always taught in the church a miracle was.

It wasn't so long ago we in the LDS church mocked the Protestants for saying the day of miracles had ceased (the Book of Mormon even says this; in fact Elder Hallstrom ironically titles his talk this), because we had them right here in the LDS Church. Not only that, miracles are a sign our church is true.

But now we have become what we used to condemn in others.

We have no miracles.

But we keep talking as if we do.

I am not sure which is more depressing.

consiglieri wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:16 pm I was going to respond to Emower, but I think Hagoth already did.

Sorry to harsh your buzz, Consig. The question was obviously intended for you but it jabbed a nerve and I was moved by the spirit beyond my power to resist.

Fortunate events become miracles now, even just being born.

In direct opposition to the very definition of a miracle, which is something extremely unusual that doesn't happen naturally. If it happens to everyone, it ain't a miracle. Getting born, as amazingly wonderful as it is, happens to everyone. Not a miracle. The sun setting and lighting up the clouds with pretty colors is not a miracle. Surviving an accident after being extracted by the jaws of life, treated by EMTs, rushed to the hospital in an ambulance, and operated on by a highly skilled surgical team does not become a miracle by throwing a priesthood blessing on top of it.

I'm sorry to jab at nerves, it isnt my intention. Several people besides my wife have told me lately they feel like this place is hostile and feels a little hateful. I'm trying to be the leaven in the bread so to speak, but nobody likes a devils advocate so I am trying to come from a heartfelt place. It may take some practice.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:45 pm If an apostle really walked into a hospital and cured someone's cancer would no one notice?

Apparently Bednar healed John's cancer, and we seem perfectly willing to not talk about it, or chalk it up to coincidence due to it's recurrence later. If I had time I might make a study out of looking at the word "miracle" through church history. I would bet that the term miracle is used to reference non-miracle material all the time even in the early days of the church. Maybe I would lose the bet, but I sense that this is not a new thing. It may be more prevalent now, but not new. I think of the Kirtland bank debacle. Somehow half the people in Kirtland found a way to make it a faith-promoting experience instead of a faith-destroying one. I would presume that they may be just as prone to put the miracle label on normal things as well.

Don't they know that if these things really happened they would be blasted all over FaceBook?

My facebook is consistently blasted with this kind of stuff. Its all normal stuff transformed into miracles, but its blasted alright.

They still demand that we respect them as having godlike power, and that we believe that we as priesthood holders also have this godlike power that we can actually manifest if we were sufficiently worthy and faithful. Shame is generated by our perception that failure of blessings can be due to the individual priesthood holder's "worthiness" according to the church's mostly arbitrary rules.

Is this the real issue? Because I am with you there 100%. I agree agree agree. The teaching needs to change.

What I react to a little bit is the focusing on taking away blessings from people who take solace in them by railing against the efficacy of those blessings. My wifes mother has been dealing with very serious medical problems for the last 5 years. These years have been a literal hell for her, almost dying several times and suffering from some weird undiagnosed immune disease. For the last year she has been unable to talk, swallow (she spits in a bottle and has a feeding tube), and she cannot function without a steady stream of painkillers. She has had every blessing under the sun with no healing. Lately they found a treatment that has allowed her to whisper. My wife was able to talk to her finally and was grateful for it. Why could this not be a miracle for her? Why do we need to take that away from people?

consiglieri wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:16 pm "John" had additional journal entries trying to deal with the issues the recurrence caused him, like, "Was there something I didn't learn the first time?" "Why is this happening to me again?"

These questions raised overlapping issues that I had already mostly addressed. Additional points I did not make were how Elder Bednar's initial talk with "John" somehow led him to think it was his fault when the cancer came back. Hence his questions.

Then he found the answers to his questions.

I repeat for emphasis John’s statement: “As I allowed those two ideas to coexist in my life, focused faith in Jesus Christ and complete submission to His will, I found greater comfort and peace.”

Those two ideas were that God could heal him, but would he? Now, whether that attitude about God is a healthy one is certainly up for debate. But what is not up for debate is that those two ideas helped him find peace and comfort in what I assume was a slow and painful demise. And those two ideas were something that stemmed from the question that Bednar asked.

I know that I suffer from trying to force Mormonism into a box that makes logical sense. None of it does. That is a problem from me and for you, but not for Eyring, Hallstrom, Oaks, or the 5 million active members we have. So I suppose I dont know what I am arguing about, only that we should probably quit expecting things to make sense, and possibly respect those that can make lemonade out of the lemons they are dealt. If faith in a priesthood blessing is what gets them through the night, is that any different from your belief that the numerology in the BOM is unexplainable to a certain level of satisfaction?

Maybe that is the real miracle, that something so illogical and complicated can bring comfort to so many people. Then again, so can Santa Clause...but we dont rail against Santa...but we dont pay tithing to santa and he doesnt threaten us with our salvation either...I dont know.

Emower wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:22 pm I'm sorry to jab at nerves, it isnt my intention

Sorry Emower. I was referring to this general jabbing pain I get from the glorification of priesthood power in general, not
to you specifically.

I absolutely agree with you that blessings can be beneficial in that they can bring genuine comfort and even relieve pain. I have experienced those things myself. I would like to see blessings promoted in this way. It should be a gift to the receiver rather than a test of their faith or worthiness to be healed, or worse, not to be healed. And, logically, it should also be egalitarian. Anyone should be able to give a blessing of comfort to anyone.

If priesthood power is an actual, practical form of magic it should just work - no strings attached. But it works just like Uri Geller's psychic demonstrations- it is fully dependent of everyone involved believing in it and playing along in their proper roles, and it defies any kind of imperial explanation.

Or if being healed is just about faith, so be it. But don't make it about both. Don't shoot both the victim and the messenger.

I believe it was Elder Oaks who claimed that we can measure the approach of the second coming by the supposed increasing frequency of earthquakes. In that world view surely there would be an objective way to measure the efficacy of priesthood healing. Why aren't they using medical statistics to demonstrate the amazing cancer recovery rates in Utah? Because the facts don't support the claims. Mormons don't recover from deadly illnesses at a higher rate than anybody else.

I believe Consiglieri mentioned Vaughn J. Featherstone's talk about the father who supposedly raised his son from the dead, a feat only possible because the father hadn't masturbated or looked at porn. Ugh. Is the priesthood really about blessing people or controlling people?

So, I guess my beef is this:
Blessings as a way to give people hope, comfort, relief, and as a way of showing love: Good
Blessings as a control mechanism and a test of faith, worthiness, and as propaganda for the awesomeness of elite (although undetectable) Mormon priesthood: Bad

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:39 am So, I guess my beef is this:
Blessings as a way to give people hope, comfort, relief, and as a way of showing love: Good
Blessings as a control mechanism and a test of faith, worthiness, and as propaganda for the awesomeness of elite (although undetectable) Mormon priesthood: Bad

I can get on board with that 100%. What I reacted to I suppose was the assumption in the podcast that only an immediate and complete healing would be sufficient to show hope, comfort, relief, and love. The reality behind what priesthood blessings do is so much more complicated than was a person healed or not, at least according to Mormon thought processes. Now I also acknowledge and agree that the stories and lessons the Priesthood holders get really do challenge this view. This is probably the crux of that matter, the double speak and inability of our leaders to actually tell us how it really works, which is decidedly less magical than they are comfortable with saying. But that is part of why I kind of liked Bednars talk the second time around, because it came from a much less magical place.