A place to love and accept the people who think about and live Mormonism on their own terms.
https://tranzatec.net/
Likely behind Platform Six and Two-Thirds (6.66)
Wrong. Joseph and his loony family were considered bat crap crazy by most of their neighbors even back in the days when there wasn't "a pretty firm barrier between the natural world and the supernatural world". That's just BS. Early Mormons were mostly superstitious and gullible people who bought into nonsense like seer stones, then as now people with common sense didn't go in for that kind of idiocy. Look at Emma's dad - they had to elope because he saw Joseph for the charlatan that he was. In our day and age people still join Scientology - but it isn't like most of society would. Same thing in the time of Joseph Smith - the gullible and weak minded fell for that kind of junk, people with any common sense didn't.Seer stones seem strange, are they?
Seer stones were associated with prophetic work in the days of Joseph, but seem quite peculiar to many today.
“They are very strange," Frederick said. "But that’s because in 2016 as a society we’ve erected a pretty firm barrier between the natural world and the supernatural world, between the scientific world and the religious world.”
These barriers did not exist in the 1800s and a prophet of Joseph’s time, Frederick continued, would actually “be expected to have a connection with the divine world, such as a seer stone. It gave Joseph prophetic credibility in the minds of his listeners.”
Frederick concluded that “it’s strange to think that many of the events surrounding the coming forth of the Book of Mormon that cause faith crises for some Latter-day Saints today, such as angelic visitations, scripture written on plates of gold or English words appearing on stones, had largely the opposite effect for 19th-century converts.”
Yes. There's a reason Joseph latched onto the speculation by W.W. Phelps about the term Urim & Thummim and immediately started referring to the seer stones as such from then on. Even Joseph knew there were problems with how he'd used the stones to translate the BofM as well as using these same stones previously for treasure seeking. It absolutely was not accepted or common and this article infers, "well everyone was doing it back then". All one needs to do is read the testimonies of the Smith family's neighbors or how Joseph was hauled into court for doing what he was doing to know that simply is not true.deacon blues wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:37 pm Joseph knew he had to be cautious with talking about seer stones, just as he had to be cautious about polygamy. The LDS church had secrets and cover ups from the very beginning.
Bill Reel wrote:From the article: ""Such an explanation (the use of a treasure digging seer stone in a hat) is, in our judgment, simply fiction created for the purpose of demeaning Joseph Smith and to undermine the validity of the revelations he received after translating the Book of Mormon."" - two BYU Professors (Joseph Fielding McConkie & Craig Ostler)
Now how can we make the argument that the seer stone info was both available and accepted as legitimate when two BYU professors including the son of a General Authority didn't buy into it? So I am to believe the lay member should of known while also accepting that these two informed and educated deep thinking BYU professors did not accept the stone in the hat as legitimate? that's weird.
http://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/Rel121 ... 20BofM.pdf
Which makes me feel real good about my genetic heritage!Not Buying It wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:28 amLook at Emma's dad - they had to elope because he saw Joseph for the charlatan that he was. In our day and age people still join Scientology - but it isn't like most of society would. Same thing in the time of Joseph Smith - the gullible and weak minded fell for that kind of junk, people with any common sense didn't.
Well, this is certainly a big shift in Mormon understanding. Throw out those descriptions of goggles or even the Old Testament description of the breastplate. They are now seer stones. Claiming that seer stones were a normal part of religious history is also a shift toward normalizing the seer stones. All that is left is a heroic portrait of Joseph peering into his hat to appear on the cover of the Ensign magazine (a Seer Stone Monument in Liberty Park would be nice, but optional).Is there a difference between a seer stone and the Urim and Thummim?
Urim and Thummim is largely a synonym for seer stones, though at times the Hebrew term meaning “lights and perfections” or “revelation and truth,” depending on the translation, have been used to describe certain stones in particular. For example, Joseph first used the term to refer to the Nephite stones but later used the term to describe any seer stone. Thus, MacKay and Frederick show in their book, the Urim and Thummim and term seer stone are used interchangeably to indicate seer stones as a revelatory tool.
I skimmed through the article quickly, and didn't see any mention of the "face in the hat" method of getting seer-stoned.
Clearly you aren't as gullible as your forefathers or you wouldn't be on this forum!fh451 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:56 pmWhich makes me feel real good about my genetic heritage!Not Buying It wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:28 amLook at Emma's dad - they had to elope because he saw Joseph for the charlatan that he was. In our day and age people still join Scientology - but it isn't like most of society would. Same thing in the time of Joseph Smith - the gullible and weak minded fell for that kind of junk, people with any common sense didn't.
fh451
I didn't see where they stated that Joseph used the seer stone by placing it in his hat. Can you quote it?
Not Buying It wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:54 am Which makes me feel real good about my genetic heritage!
fh451
Gullible yes, but our advantage is what we're using right now - the internet. Just thirty years ago on my mission I was avoiding (and judging and despising) those "minions of Satan" that were trying to expose me to the exact issues I would later find were genuine. Anti-Mormon? Certainly. Lies? Unfortunately not!!!!!Clearly you aren't as gullible as your forefathers or you wouldn't be on this forum!
It will be the first book of a new series by "Tennis Shoes among the Nephites" author, Chris Heimerdinger. The title, appropriately, is "Joseph Smith and the Seer Stone" detailing how this young boy dug a hole and found a rock. No, wait, "the young prophet discovered an artifact that would lead to the restoration of God's true church". The sequels will be "Joseph Smith and the Plates of Gold", "Joseph Smith and the Prophet's Top Hat", and eventually "Joseph Smith and the Twice-Married Wife".20/20hind wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:43 am http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... tones.html
Wait, are they talking about the church, or Harry Potter?
This is baloney. The seer stone is more like a gypsy with a crystal ball, not like the Urim and Thummim stories of biblical legend.Is there a difference between a seer stone and the Urim and Thummim?
Urim and Thummim is largely a synonym for seer stones, though at times the Hebrew term meaning “lights and perfections” or “revelation and truth,” depending on the translation, have been used to describe certain stones in particular.
Found it:
One tiny mention, buried in how many pages of mormon-splaining?Deseret News wrote: Nonetheless, published accounts did shed some light on the process, and it also is included in “Joseph Smith’s Seer Stones.” These accounts suggest Joseph would look into the seer stone and see sentences formed. He would read the sentences a word at a time and spell proper names one letter at a time. When the scribe had properly written down the characters, the next word or sentence would appear. Joseph would often place the stone in a hat to block out light and more clearly see what was written.
What they're pulling here is their basic bait-and-switch / gaslighting routine. Though they ONLY EVER taught anything in correlated manuals (before ~2013) that said the Umma and Thurman = the magic prehistoric nephite spectacles, THEY HAVE BEEN referring to Joseph's Magic Rock as the Umma and Thurman THE WHOLE TIME. Oh, and, YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THIS, because they've "always known it" (Or they're lying and saying that they've always known this.)Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:41 amThis is baloney. The seer stone is more like a gypsy with a crystal ball, not like the Urim and Thummim stories of biblical legend.Is there a difference between a seer stone and the Urim and Thummim?
Urim and Thummim is largely a synonym for seer stones, though at times the Hebrew term meaning “lights and perfections” or “revelation and truth,” depending on the translation, have been used to describe certain stones in particular.
"Umma and Thurman?" You've made me question the whole basis for Quentin Tarantino movies!wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:54 amWhat they're pulling here is their basic bait-and-switch / gaslighting routine. Though they ONLY EVER taught anything in correlated manuals (before ~2013) that said the Umma and Thurman = the magic prehistoric nephite spectacles, THEY HAVE BEEN referring to Joseph's Magic Rock as the Umma and Thurman THE WHOLE TIME. Oh, and, YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THIS, because they've "always known it" (Or they're lying and saying that they've always known this.)
You know it and they know it, yet off to spin they go! Where they'll stop, nobody knows!Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:41 am
This is baloney. The seer stone is more like a gypsy with a crystal ball, not like the Urim and Thummim stories of biblical legend.Is there a difference between a seer stone and the Urim and Thummim?
Urim and Thummim is largely a synonym for seer stones, though at times the Hebrew term meaning “lights and perfections” or “revelation and truth,” depending on the translation, have been used to describe certain stones in particular.