NOM

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-morm ... g&old=true

I read through this again in the past few days and just shake my head in disbelief that this is a church that I was raised with and believed in.

(Buried plates, seer stone gazing) it's all such an obvious ruse that it's just laughable. And they try and spin it as (see this is totally normal! Many people used seer stones in his day.). Then they use a quote from the Book of Mormon to back up the use of the stone.

Then they quote Emma saying it has to be divine, cause she just knows. Because she is an expert in divinity.

This whole essay is ridiculously stupid. I spent my entire life in the church. 3 hours on Sunday, seminary, 2 year mission. Never once hearing anything about a seer stone.

Now they produce this essay, show a pic of the seer stone in the ensign and believers eat it up like its moms Sunday dinner and they claim they have known about the stone and the translation since they where wee little mormons.

I'm surprised they haven't created a primary song about the stone yet.

Sorry I'm just a little pissed off about this essay if you can't tell..

I feel ya, I think the same thing now.

Smell that gas? It comes from all the gaslighting.

I am in the same boat...the boat they want us not to abandon. I feel like such a fool to actually have believed this. I thought it was so real, now with more facts, it is obviously a real fraud.
After 2-3 years, in am still in the bitter/hate phase. I am damned. I'm stuck. I cannot get out of this without causing harm to family, friends, myself. I do not know how to move forward.

2bizE wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:16 pm I am in the same boat...the boat they want us not to abandon. I feel like such a fool to actually have believed this. I thought it was so real, not with more facts, it is obviously a real fraud.
After 2-3 years, in am still in the bitter/hate phase. I am damned. I'm stuck. I cannot get out of this without causing harm to family, friends, myself. I do not know how to move forward.

I have past my angry phase. But it comes back full force at times. With a tbm wife and my kids being raised in the church its bound to happen.

Mormonism is part of my daily life even though im not a member anymore..

I for one am happy the Church came clean on this point. That resurrection of the ancient yes/no stones dangling from a chest plate as a means of translation was so far out.

The stone box, the golden plates, and the entire translation process were all part of what Alfred Hitchcock would call the McGuffin of the story. Just plot points to enable the story. Could have been the recollection of words direct from The Great Golden Penguin or the Maltese Falcon. The result would be the same: "It came to pass ... the end" (or Fin as they write at the end of many great French films).

It is the story which defines us, not the plot points. It stands as the great LDS narrative, much like the Elder Edda did for the Norse or the Epic of Gilgamesh did for the Mesopotamians.

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:51 pm I for one am happy the Church came clean on this point. That resurrection of the ancient yes/no stones dangling from a chest plate as a means of translation was so far out.

I'm not sure that the church has fully come "clean" yet. Most members are far from comfortable talking about seer stones. In the lessons where they might get mentioned by braver instructors, the stones are not acknowledged being "weird" or all that unusual. They should be a rather transformational aspect of the LDS church going forward. Instead, many members and apologists continue to blame the skeptics with the usual accusations of "we've always known that" and "it should not bother you" or yet another "he was a man of his time". Even when such strange objects like the seer stones are fully acknowledged, the central narrative of obedience to the LDS church remains in place. We are allowed to change our view of "translation", but not about attitudes towards the Word of Wisdom, temple service, missionary service, or Sabbath day activities. These changes in narrative are only applied to members. It does not become a chance to make changes in the institutional church.

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:51 pmThe stone box, the golden plates, and the entire translation process were all part of what Alfred Hitchcock would call the McGuffin of the story. Just plot points to enable the story. Could have been the recollection of words direct from The Great Golden Penguin or the Maltese Falcon. The result would be the same: "It came to pass ... the end" (or Fin as they write at the end of many great French films).

It is the story which defines us, not the plot points. It stands as the great LDS narrative, much like the Elder Edda did for the Norse or the Epic of Gilgamesh did for the Mesopotamians.

With all the silliness around LDS history and doctrine, I would much rather be defined by the "Lord of the Rings" than by the "Book of Mormon".

Corsair wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:24 am I'm not sure that the church has fully come "clean" yet. Most members are far from comfortable talking about seer stones.

The leaders are not comfortable talking about it either (even though they are claiming that they want to be open about these difficult historical issues now). They still cannot bring themselves to change the illustrations showing how Joseph translated the BofM.

This was posted on another forum yesterday (2 separate posts):

"I KNOW first hand that the church has commissioned new translation pictures that include the hat translation method...all have been rejected for public consumption...my guess... to quote Brother Packer "Some things that are true are not very helpful" or in other words better to keep it mysterious rather than create a picture that solidifies the Bizarre."

And....

"I KNOW the painter who was commissioned by the church...I also KNOW the person who commissioned the paintings...he is not a GA...All I can surmise is that once he presented the completed paintings to the GA's for approval they were rejected...but he would have never commissioned the work to begin with without some direction in the first place...all I know is that once completed they were never used and are now in some closet in the COB collecting dust. Its speculation on my part as to why they were never used...my guess is that once the GA's saw the actual rock in hat picture...better judgement took over and they decided it was better not to ...ummmm put in picture form such a spiritual event cough cough."

So let me make sure I understand.

You're ok with the Virgin Mary getting immaculately impregnated.
You're ok with a dude getting crucified and coming back to life 3 days later.
You're ok with the great apostasy.
You're ok with an uneducated 14 year old boy getting visited by God and Jesus.
You're ok with the same boy digging up gold plates buried in a hill.
You're ok with same man "interpreting" the plates as he flips through them.
You're NOT ok with stones that display translated words when looked upon in a hat.

It's all ridiculously stupid in the grand scheme of reality. Why didn't we all think that the birth of the Son of God by a donkey riding virgin wasn't crazy at all.

Magic stones in hats really aren't that silly compared to talking asses, burning trees, Israeli submarines, and sword wielding angels that force men to marry multiple women.

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:51 pm I for one am happy the Church came clean on this point. That resurrection of the ancient yes/no stones dangling from a chest plate as a means of translation was so far out.

Good point Sir Penguin. Prehistoric magic spectacles are really not any crazier than 19th century magic rocks. If we'd all been taught the magic rock story since birth, we wouldn't have a problem with it. That's what inoculation does. (Funny though... In the medical world, we only inoculate against stuff that can kill us, right?)

The real issue (IMO) is that The Corporation has been dishonest about the magic rock story (and a lot of other stuff too.) They've known about it from The Corporation's inception, and in fact have had the Magic Rock™ in their possession from the beginning. All of their "we've always known about this" stuff is plain and simple gaslighting. Show me one correlated manual before ~2013 that has a lesson about magic rocks. Or as others have mentioned: Show me one graphical depiction of the actual translation that has been approved by The Corporation.

In fact, this is the one question that I would like to actually ask a GA: Why is God's Only True And Living Church™ on the face of the earth dishonest? (We would of course read Gospel Principles Chapter 31: Honesty to begin our discussion.)

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:32 am So let me make sure I understand.

You're ok with the Virgin Mary getting immaculately impregnated.
You're ok with a dude getting crucified and coming back to life 3 days later.
You're ok with the great apostasy.
You're ok with an uneducated 14 year old boy getting visited by God and Jesus.
You're ok with the same boy digging up gold plates buried in a hill.
You're ok with same man "interpreting" the plates as he flips through them.
You're NOT ok with stones that display translated words when looked upon in a hat.

It's all ridiculously stupid in the grand scheme of reality. Why didn't we all think that the birth of the Son of God by a donkey riding virgin wasn't crazy at all.

Magic stones in hats really aren't that silly compared to talking asses, burning trees, Israeli submarines, and sword wielding angels that force men to marry multiple women.

All completely valid points, but again, such points are for thinking people, and as we all know, religionists and Mormons in particular, are oft warned about the evils of thinking.

AllieOop wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 amThey still cannot bring themselves to change the illustrations showing how Joseph translated the BofM.

I feel for them. It's a terrible fix.

I'm just pointed that South Park isn't referenced in the footnotes.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:20 pm I'm just pointed that South Park isn't referenced in the footnotes.

It could be that the South Park episode of Joseph Smith looking into his hat is what clued the many knowing posters at the Mormon D&D board into the seer stone's usage ahead of time. That is why they were able to tell those rattled by this disclosure, "Like we have known this practically forever. If you had been diligent you would have seen that episode as well."

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:20 pm I'm just pointed that South Park isn't referenced in the footnotes.

That was supposed to be disappointed. I have not idea what happened to the disa.