NOM

I came upon a thought-provoking quote by Milton Mayer, author of "They Thought They Were Free- Germans from 1933-1945" Mayer says: "Every thing changes. Every thing but one. Even the medieval Schoolmen admitted a limitation on God's omnipotence: He cannot change the past...my friends and some millions of other Germans like them-- are and ever will be what they were ten years ago"
Sadly, that is what we all try to do, and when I point to the LDS church, I have three fingers pointing back at me. The reality that church leaders, with the intention of building faith (in what is another question) do try to change the past is not something new. Manuscript Book #1 shows that it has been going on since the beginning of the church. Joseph Smith, like all humans, tried to control others perception of him, the the church still does this today.
Even Winston Churchill, another man of prodigious talents, with an ego to match, said, "history will be kind to me, for i intend to write it."
We will ever be what we are, despite our efforts to put on our own spin on our appearance to the world.....

Unless....................we truly believe that God (or if you prefer- Universal Reality) is Truth.

Just preachin' to the choir here. showing my serious side.

Interesting - I had never heard anyone conjecture about that limitation of God before. If indeed God is "all powerful," could he change the past? And more importantly, if he did, how would you even know???

fh451

Yes, we attempt to change history all the time. Sometimes we succeed, and often it's unintentional and simply based on how memory works. But I suppose that's not the same thing as changing the past. In many instances, history (which I see as how we remember and interpret the past, individually and as societies) ends up being more significant to us than what "really happened" in the past.

I suppose that if God did have the power to change the past, we'd never know it because that would become the past that we remember. The science fiction film Primer explores just how messy this could become if humans had the ability to manipulate the past.

Edit: Regarding the point of whether we'd know it if God actually did change the past, it looks like fh451 either beat me to it or read my post and then manipulated the past to say it first.

Of course God can change the past, he does it all the time.

though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

And

I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Easy, history is changed, like you never did it.

See you in Sunday school.

Korihor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:44 pmEasy, history is changed, like you never did it.

It can be changed back as well.

D&C 82:7 wrote:And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.

Is forgiveness pretending, or forgetting something ever happened? Maybe. Could this actually be called changing the past? Nope. We could forgive Oswald/Whomever for killing Kennedy, but it still happened, and unequivocally changed the lives of millions.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:06 pm I came upon a thought-provoking quote by Milton Mayer, author of "They Thought They Were Free- Germans from 1933-1945" Mayer says: "Every thing changes. Every thing but one. Even the medieval Schoolmen admitted a limitation on God's omnipotence: He cannot change the past...my friends and some millions of other Germans like them-- are and ever will be what they were ten years ago"

Here's weird thought experiment. Suppose that God can and does change the past. In that case, how would you know that it had been changed? Would we still remember that "uncorrected" past or just the updated history that God "corrected". In either case, why would the worst atrocities of history still be in place? What kind of profound historical tragedy was changed but He still left in place the Jewish holocaust, Cambodian killing fields, or Mongol horde sacking of numerous cities? Is there an alternate history where the box set of season 10 of "Firefly" exists but had to be expunged by a time travelling god who was somehow preventing the zombie apocalypse? We see how quickly this idea turns into a parody of itself while still leaving the savagery of human history in too many instances.

My new thinking on this is ........ repentance and forgiveness should be more about the future than the past. Yes, we should try to make amends for our mistakes. But we CAN change the future by repentance and forgiveness. In fact, sometimes we must change the future.

So if God is omniscient could there ever be a need or desire on his part to change the past, whether he could or not? It seems to me that being truly omniscient and otherwise omnipotent would make the ability to change the past completely redundant.

• Let's say something that is going to happen in the future (if there's no intervention on God's part) is an unacceptable event according to God.
• From the beginning of time God, being omniscient, knows the unacceptable event is going to happen if He does not intervene.
• Being omniscient, He knows all possible permutations of cause and effect or at least can know them as he chooses to think through the chain of events.
• Based on this knowledge (and assuming His omnipotence in all but changing the past), God can intervene and prevent the unacceptable event before it happens.
• No need to change the past when you can change events to determine the future you want.

I mean, if God were to change the past, wouldn't He be a changing God since He would be changing what He willed to be in the first place?

Of course, none of this is really a problem for Mormon theology, because LDS teachings indicate that God is limited by natural laws including moral agency, the workings of justice and mercy, real physics (not the pretend stuff of scientists , etc. I'm serious about this though. Mormonism has it's own strengths and weaknesses due to it's unique perspective of the attributes of God.

This kind of stuff can keep your mind spinning for a long time o_O
Zack

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:06 pm I came upon a thought-provoking quote by Milton Mayer, author of "They Thought They Were Free- Germans from 1933-1945" Mayer says: "Every thing changes. Every thing but one. Even the medieval Schoolmen admitted a limitation on God's omnipotence: He cannot change the past...my friends and some millions of other Germans like them-- are and ever will be what they were ten years ago"
Sadly, that is what we all try to do, and when I point to the LDS church, I have three fingers pointing back at me. The reality that church leaders, with the intention of building faith (in what is another question) do try to change the past is not something new. Manuscript Book #1 shows that it has been going on since the beginning of the church. Joseph Smith, like all humans, tried to control others perception of him, the the church still does this today.
Even Winston Churchill, another man of prodigious talents, with an ego to match, said, "history will be kind to me, for i intend to write it."
We will ever be what we are, despite our efforts to put on our own spin on our appearance to the world.....

Unless....................we truly believe that God (or if you prefer- Universal Reality) is Truth.

Just preachin' to the choir here. showing my serious side.

The church has mastered the art of rock polishing.

They did it with the peep stone. And they do it with pretty much all the embarrassing nuggets of its history.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:39 am Is forgiveness pretending, or forgetting something ever happened? Maybe. Could this actually be called changing the past? Nope. We could forgive Oswald/Whomever for killing Kennedy, but it still happened, and unequivocally changed the lives of millions.

It's weird, but this is what finally did in the idea of atonement for me. No matter how contrite a person is, how regretfully they are, it doesn't change things that have happened. It reminds me of Ed Snows line "I cannot bring your dead back to life, or restore your homes. But perhaps I can bring you justice in the name of our king..." Yet even as the hand of the king, he couldnt. No one can. You can kill the murderer, I could sleep with another woman to get even with my wife, you can pay for the candy bar.....it doesn't change what happened and isn't justice.

DB pointed out it can change the future, but even that idea I reject since the futures not set. I can keep trying to work things out with my wife, for example, but it doesn't move us back to where we would have been without her affair. My uncle, who found out ten plus years ago my aunt was cheating on him, told me that even a decade later "you'll find yourself going into a panic when she doesn't answer her phone, or her car is gone when you get home. Be prepared, it's going to be a long, long time before your marriage feels like one again--and it will NEVER be like it was."

The idea he'll "make it right in heaven" is laughable because the impact years, decades, and generations later affects so many things, it literally mutes human existence, so why even set it all up if in heaven eve doesn't even eat the fruit?

God can't change the past, can't minimize it's impact on the future. He can't succor your wounds or morn with those who morn. A higher power might as well check out and watch lifetime reruns all day.

Why create the arch of time if you are going to change it?