NOM

No, it's not the title of a new manual by Elder Packer.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5bisd7

This story made national NBC news this morning if you haven't seen it yet.

The background: A catholic school basketball team in New Jersey made the playoffs with a coed team. The choice the boys were given was either play without the girls, or forfeit. The kids took a vote and decided unanimously to stay together. Go watch the story if you haven't seen it yet. How well they handled it is inspiring.

The local diocese admitted the organization's error and had the team re-instated, with their wins, upon getting word of the story. They're hoping to make it to the championship in the coming weeks, and should have picked up a few more fans along the way.

A couple of questions as it relates to the church:

First, these ultimatums are pretty common in the church lately as it relates to social issues. It's allowing someone only the appearance of agency. Was it the kids' decision to be kicked out of the playoffs? As a member of the Church, if your choice was to either leave, or to not support full LGBT equality, who's really making the decision for you to be excommunicated?

It's complicated because that reasoning can also be taken too far. So, when it is OK to speak out against positions the church takes, and when is it reasonable to be excommunicated over them? Those are opinions in themselves, but the answer cannot absolutely be, I or the church "will always takes the right position". Because it hasn't always, even by its own admission. Would it be have been OK to be excommunicated because you stood up for the rights of those with some African descent to be sealed in the temple (which requires the priesthood) or denounced polygamy? Would a loving Heavenly Father, if you believe that, even honor that excommunication if you followed your conscience and it ended up being ahead of the curve?

Second, this story would never happen within the Mormon bubble today. But it only just happened outside the Mormon bubble. The results might not have been the same if something comparable was asked of the parents. So if this victory on a kids basketball team is extraordinary- is life better for women outside the Church than within it?

I think your question has two parts. One is, "is God the kind of jerk who would punish a person, say for being excommunicated for loudly supporting black's being given the priesthood in 1976. The second question seems to be, "would an individual be happier inside or outside the church?"

The first question depends on what kind of God you believe in. Do you really want to believe in a God who puts obedience to authority above acting according to one's own counscience? And Besides...If the Mormon church is true and we are going to "grow up" to be gods, or even "like God" then we can't be as small children and only obey authority and never think for ourselves or exercise our own moral judgement. We have to grow up past the stage of moral development where we obey authority. (See Kolhberg's levels of moral development.) We have to grow up to be adults before we can possibly grow up to become Gods. In spite of what the church tells us.

As to whether or not a woman might be happier outside of the church, I think that depends on the individual. It is going to depend on what that individual believes as well as pragmatic things like are they introverted or extroverted.

Personally I am much happier outside. So much so, that when I say I am considering going back, my TBM husband acts horrified. He sees I am much happier and doesn't want me going back to where he knows I was miserable.

I would say that our conscience should be the guide for when to speak out. Take into account that we all see through a glass darkly, as Paul says, and then speak out with Love and faith in the God of Truth.

well wandered wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:43 am Second, this story would never happen within the Mormon bubble today.

Sad, but true. Fortunately, the Mormon Church is not in the elementary school business.

Is life better for women outside the Church than within it?

Only in terms of fuller rights and greater opportunities. Otherwise, the Church offers more or less normal life on days other than Sunday.

To what end do you want to speak?

To bring about change? That probably won't happen, at least not in the venue you propose. That sort of action takes copious amounts of energy, people and time.

To let the other person know they're wrong? To confront them? That will only make things worse.

If they are maligning a demographic and advocating cruelty, then yes, speak up, but you'll also probably have to draw a line in the sand with these people.

Are you part of that demographic they are maligning? The decision is yours. I would lean toward cautiously speaking up. Because I've found clarity in personal relationships to be a good thing. Again, this may put a line between you and the others. Be prepared for blowback. If you can have powerful support in your corner, fantastic.

As for women in this church, that depends on how patriarchal minded the woman is. That depends on whether or not the woman believes she can be a contributor in this setting, but this church is patriarchal and is not likely to change. If equality is a necessary component of happiness, and the family won't give her grief, I think a woman is better off leaving.