NOM

I would like to hear opinions about whether people think Joseph was running a con. I am not sure what to think. Part of me thinks he really believed in what he was preaching. His actions were not the actions of a person trying to consolidate power for his own gain. I am 100% sure that he was a very intelligent and clever person, and if his goal was his own gain his actions seemed inconsistent with that goal. Sometimes part of me thinks that he really did know that he was misleading people.
If his goal was money, he completely failed on that account. He could have raised and absconded with plenty of money, but he did seem to put growing the church before (most of) his interests.
If his goal was sexual pleasure I think we would have some history or accounts that no apologist could spin. Instead we have evidence for a bunch of marriages and sexual dalliances that are repulsive and inexcusable to be sure, but don't speak sex addict to me.
If his goal was political power, he could have done a whole host of things different to appeal to more people.
If his goal was ecclesiastical power, he could have set some things up differently as well. He did not get his way all the time, and was even put before a disciplinary council several times. Nothing came of these councils of course, but a power hungry cult leader would never let that happen in my opinion.
If his goal was to be liked and praised and to have his ego stroked I think he succeeded in a big way. Would anyone really die for that?

My opinion is that he really believed in what he was pushing. Much the same way in which the "bretheren" now believe. Holland says he would not devote his life to a joke, and I believe him. What he doesn't know is that the joke is on him.

So what is your opinion and how have you come to that opinion?

Related and in addition to this question:

Oliver Cowdery would have needed to be in on this con in a fundamental way. He and Joseph testified that they received the priesthood from John the Baptist. He never said that that was seen by his "spiritual eyes," so he corroborated Josephs story literally. If the priesthood restoration is made up, which I believe it is, why would Oliver not have said something in anger during his break from Mormonism? What did he have to gain from keeping quiet about it?

I think it started as a con. The Book of Mormon was a continuation of his old tricks: treasure hunting, seer stoning, leading people on, and conning gullible rich old men into financing his operations. The attempt to sell the copyright of the book and then to publish it himself without so much as a mark of punctuation speaks to the BOM not being what he said it was.

It certainly seems that he became more devout and maybe started to believe his own hype over the years. That's what hero-worship will do to a person.

I do believe that at first, the goal was money. I disagree that he put the church before his own needs. I'm sure we could find anecdotes of that, but he also tried to give himself an absurd salary (voted down by the law of common consent) and lived an entirely comfortable life. Yes, he invested wealth that he could have taken for himself into the church, but it was his church. Of course he's going to continue investing in his highly successful business; who wouldn't?

I don't believe his initial goal was sexual pleasure, but I think it's easy to imagine a man who very quickly became revered by a group of people believing him to be a prophet and had a high level of charisma on his own, so of course sexual opportunities would begin presenting themselves. It would take a true (latter-day?) saint to not act on constant sexual opportunities, and it seems that he certainly got carried away pursuing these by the late Nauvoo years... if not sooner.

I don't think political or ecclesiastical power were his aims. From everything I know about Joseph, he was a man who sought after riches and pleasure. As a fellow hedonist, I identify with him in that way. However, I don't con millions of people through generation after generation to pursue these ends.

Emower wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:33 pm Related and in addition to this question:

Oliver Cowdery would have needed to be in on this con in a fundamental way. He and Joseph testified that they received the priesthood from John the Baptist. He never said that that was seen by his "spiritual eyes," so he corroborated Josephs story literally. If the priesthood restoration is made up, which I believe it is, why would Oliver not have said something in anger during his break from Mormonism? What did he have to gain from keeping quiet about it?

Oliver Cowdery had a law practice with his brother after leaving the church. His attempt at a political career was hampered merely by his association with Mormonism. I would think that if he publicly proclaimed that he had been part of a huge fraud, telling specific lies to perpetuate its abuses, his career would have been all but finished. Why would he undermine his own credibility in this way, mad at the Mormon church or not?

Whether or not a con-man believes his own con does not change the fact that it is a con, does it?

I lean towards the opportunist and pious fraud theory. The opportunities presented themselves and the means justified the end (which was to get women into bed). Ego and fame elevated the narcissistic tendencies in Joseph. The 1800's were hard times to live and having a congregational following presented an easy opportunity. For whatever reason, many people were looking for God, community, and a spiritual witness. Joseph met their needs, and many women ended up meeting his needs. A frontier sex cult was created and he justified it through scripture.

I am in the pious fraud camp. After reading Bushman's "Rough Stone Rolling" I am reasonably convinced that Joseph believed in what he was saying for the most part. I think he even deluded himself after a time. He modified his own memory due to the extreme social pressure of building this radical new church. One aspect of Joseph's personality that really came out in that biography was that Joseph was an extrovert who really did like to be surrounded by friends. His whiniest outbursts came from feeling let down by friends, especially when they left the church angrily. I think this kind of self imposed pressure led to him further doubling down on his personal belief in his own prophetic mantle. By the end, Joseph had conned himself.

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:57 pm I am in the pious fraud camp. After reading Bushman's "Rough Stone Rolling" I am reasonably convinced that Joseph believed in what he was saying for the most part. I think he even deluded himself after a time. He modified his own memory due to the extreme social pressure of building this radical new church. One aspect of Joseph's personality that really came out in that biography was that Joseph was an extrovert who really did like to be surrounded by friends. His whiniest outbursts came from feeling let down by friends, especially when they left the church angrily. I think this kind of self imposed pressure led to him further doubling down on his personal belief in his own prophetic mantle. By the end, Joseph had conned himself.

+1

Ultimately, I believe he "smoked his own dope" (fell for his own act) and convinced himself it was all real, despite its questionable origins (e.g. being made up in the first place).

Stig wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:59 pm

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:57 pm I am in the pious fraud camp. After reading Bushman's "Rough Stone Rolling" I am reasonably convinced that Joseph believed in what he was saying for the most part. I think he even deluded himself after a time. He modified his own memory due to the extreme social pressure of building this radical new church. One aspect of Joseph's personality that really came out in that biography was that Joseph was an extrovert who really did like to be surrounded by friends. His whiniest outbursts came from feeling let down by friends, especially when they left the church angrily. I think this kind of self imposed pressure led to him further doubling down on his personal belief in his own prophetic mantle. By the end, Joseph had conned himself.

+1

Ultimately, I believe he "smoked his own dope" (fell for his own act) and convinced himself it was all real, despite its questionable origins (e.g. being made up in the first place).

"We only sell it, never use it"
Religion - The original cocaine

I think it was started as a scheme, not necessarily as a con. I'm probably wrong.

Mr Smith as trying to make a buck like anyone else and somehow it quickly morphed from an idea to a full-blown con. Eventually, I think he believed his own lie.

But I have a hard time labelling him a con man. I think a con man shows up, takes what he can get and disappears. JS stayed in the game. He had lots and lots of opportunities to bail, constantly travelling, frequently having lots of money, etc. in his possession. He could have looted The kirtland anti-banking society vault and disappeared, but he squandered it instead.

So no, I don't think he was a con man. at least not my definition of con man. He definitely was insane, or at least created insanity around him, but he was commited to his insanity.

Yep, pious fraud. Joseph's personality was nothing like what is portrayed in the church films. Gregarious, but also demanding and moody, narcissistic, weird sense of humor. I think he came to believe he actually was speaking for God.

Emower wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:19 pm If his goal was to be liked and praised and to have his ego stroked I think he succeeded in a big way. Would anyone really die for that?

The church paints this picture that Joseph knowingly sacrificed his life for what he believed. But all the evidence points in the opposite direction. Josepsseemed to believe his followers were going to come rescue him. In fact when the mob showed up, he thought to was people come to rescue him. He also had a gun with him and killed one man in the attempt to protect himself. Not exactly the innocent lamb willingly going to slaughter. So, did he die for his ego being stroked? No, because he did not mean to allow himself to be killed.

My opinion is that he was a narcissist and needed his devot followers to love him, adore him, and praise him. This need was so great that he was willing to take some serious risks to gain the adoration he needed.

This was not his only motivation. In fact, I agree with others that it started as a way to con people out of money, just like he had been doing with the treasure seeking. That motivation never went away and he got quite a bit of money from the church. Money could earn him the love and respect from those closest to because his parents struggled with money and his mother would have just adored him for bringing in a significant sum. But the religious con got him love and attention from many people and was a much more fulfilling con.

I don't think he believed his own shit. I think he pretended to believe it as part of the con. Just think of what would have happened if he ever showed the slightest bit of not believing that he was a prophet. So, his believing his own con was just part of the con. See, even today he is conning many of us into thinking he really believed what he was preaching. I just think that he always knew it was a con and that he conned his wife and parents as well. The only member of his family that did not seem to believe him was his brother William.

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:57 pm I am in the pious fraud camp. After reading Bushman's "Rough Stone Rolling" I am reasonably convinced that Joseph believed in what he was saying for the most part. I think he even deluded himself after a time. He modified his own memory due to the extreme social pressure of building this radical new church. One aspect of Joseph's personality that really came out in that biography was that Joseph was an extrovert who really did like to be surrounded by friends. His whiniest outbursts came from feeling let down by friends, especially when they left the church angrily. I think this kind of self imposed pressure led to him further doubling down on his personal belief in his own prophetic mantle. By the end, Joseph had conned himself.

+2

I think he believed a lot of his BS and really got off on getting others to buy into it. I think this shows some narcissistic traits. Also, the polygamy/polyandry is along these lines, doing it just because he could. I mean, from some of those pics of those women it's like, really? I don't think it was all about the sex, it was more about the power of influence he had over other people, especially women. Crazy $hit bro!

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Is the Pope Catholic? Does a bear... (never mind).

Yes, he was a con artist - all the signs are there. He KNEW he could not translate plates (not that there were actually any plates), and he faked the bank thing, and he conned everyone into coughing up what was then a ton of money in order to buy the papyrus, and he told innocent girls and women that God commanded him to "marry them" - then he claimed he was oh-so-distressed over it. On & on.

There's nothing pious about him. Nothing about him or his history is honest, trustworthy or admirable. I believe that after he couldn't get traction for his earlier (and numerous) lies, he thought of using God and fraudulent "revelations" as a hook, and unlike the other scams, this one took hold.

He was a narcissist - and also mostly likely a sociopath. I believe a forensic psychologist would say the same thing. Narcissists require one or more "suppliers" - the people who supply attention. What better way to get attention than to be the one & only prophet on Earth and to convince people you're the key to their eternal family? The treasure hunting & other scams were also for attention (and for money - often those go hand in hand with narcissists), but forming a church? That was a gold mine.

Sociopaths have no conscience. They can fake remorse, but they never really demonstrate it or change. He never changed. Did he apologize to Emma, Fanny Alger, Helen Mar Kimball, etc. etc? Think about it.

I think the temple projects were financially helpful to Joseph. He didn't get rich, but he lived a lot better in the 1830's than he did in the 1820's. Google Vienna Jacques (non-LDS sites) or Sarah and Maria Lawrence (teenage sisters)and you'll get an idea how Joseph operated.

It seems highly reasonable for the inspirational and holographic communications array of the Kolobian Satellite Base to be aiming messages at Temple Square in Salt Lake City, oh ye of little faith!!!

My vote is with con. I believe Cowdery was in on the con, and Martin Harris was the "mark". He was the rich guy they suckered into financing their original operations. If you listen to the Naked Mormonism podcast about the time period of translating the Book of Mormon, I think that becomes pretty clear.

Now did Joseph begin to believe his own schtick later on? Maybe. I think it succeeded way beyond his expectations and it spun out of control at times. He was in over his head, but may have believed that God must have really had a plan for him and he was God's instrument, otherwise why did he end up in charge of 1000's of followers?

fh451

Count me in the pious fraud camp. I have no doubt he knew some of the things he did were lies but with god all things are justified.

The church paints this picture that Joseph knowingly sacrificed his life for what he believed. But all the evidence points in the opposite direction. Josepsseemed to believe his followers were going to come rescue him. In fact when the mob showed up, he thought to was people come to rescue him. He also had a gun with him and killed one man in the attempt to protect himself. Not exactly the innocent lamb willingly going to slaughter. So, did he die for his ego being stroked? No, because he did not mean to allow himself to be killed.

My opinion is that he was a narcissist and needed his devot followers to love him, adore him, and praise him. This need was so great that he was willing to take some serious risks to gain the adoration he needed.

One thing that has always stuck with me is that he went back when he had the chance to escape to Iowa. Maybe he really felt he would be rescued (like you say, he initially thought the mob were his followers) but it seemed unlikely to me a con-artist or sociopath would even take a chance with his life like that. But maybe he just really couldn't stand being viewed as a coward as that would probably fit nicely with a narcissistic personality.

Sociopaths have no conscience. They can fake remorse, but they never really demonstrate it or change. He never changed. Did he apologize to Emma, Fanny Alger, Helen Mar Kimball, etc. etc? Think about it.

While we have tons of evidence of people turning on Joseph it has always struck me how much women like Emma and Eliza R Snow seemed to love the man. Certainly there are lots of reasons a woman might stand by her man even when he has earned little to none of that kind of loyalty but Emma and Eliza never struck me as shrinking violets. For all his many, many faults he must have really had some pretty great qualities for women like that to still love and respect him...but what do I know?

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:30 pm

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:57 pm I am in the pious fraud camp. After reading Bushman's "Rough Stone Rolling" I am reasonably convinced that Joseph believed in what he was saying for the most part. I think he even deluded himself after a time. He modified his own memory due to the extreme social pressure of building this radical new church. One aspect of Joseph's personality that really came out in that biography was that Joseph was an extrovert who really did like to be surrounded by friends. His whiniest outbursts came from feeling let down by friends, especially when they left the church angrily. I think this kind of self imposed pressure led to him further doubling down on his personal belief in his own prophetic mantle. By the end, Joseph had conned himself.

+2

I think he believed a lot of his BS and really got off on getting others to buy into it. I think this shows some narcissistic traits. Also, the polygamy/polyandry is along these lines, doing it just because he could. I mean, from some of those pics of those women it's like, really? I don't think it was all about the sex, it was more about the power of influence he had over other people, especially women. Crazy $hit bro!

To be fair, I think most of the pictures we have of Joseph's wives are from decades later. I'm sure it wasn't all about sex, but come on, it was about sex.

I'm leaning to fraud. Claiming to see things in a rock? Claiming to find gold plates? And then using the rock to translate them. Sure he had witnesses to the plates but they are filled with inconsistencies and a written witness form that was generic, then everyone signed it.

You have the Book of Abraham and also the kinder hook plates. He was a gifted con man from the start. And he didn't like being called out on it at all. It's easy to claim persecution, anyone can claim to be persecuted.

The women he married is all about power and control. Nothing religious about it. He just used religion as a gateway to power.

He would run an abscond from most every encounter he had with his legal issues. Like fleeing from the illegal bank he started. He fled to Missouri after being indicted for bank fraud.

It's exactly the same pattern we see happening with the flds now. They run when legal troubles come their way. They are just following his example.

He ran when he destroyed the printing press. But was talked into returning which led to his death. People who believe they are right and their cause is correct, don't run. They stay and fight for what they believe.

Just some of my thoughts