NOM

Hi All,

Happy Valentines Day!

Just a quick survey. I'd like to poll some other NOM's on what are your top three faith crisis issues or doctrines?

I'll go first:

3- Lack of documentation of date of Priesthood Restoration /correlated effort to fit the restoration narrative. How can this VERY important date not be known considering how important it is compared to other less important things that were documented?

2- Changes in D&C about Polygamy (Section on Monogramy removed from Book of Commandments and section 132 added to current D&C). Also, book of mormon being the "fullness" of the gospel and Jacob denouncing polygamy.

1- Book of Abraham

JENuWIN wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:30 am Hi All,

Happy Valentines Day!

Just a quick survey. I'd like to poll some other NOM's on what are your top three faith crisis issues or doctrines?

I'll go first:

3- Lack of documentation of date of Priesthood Restoration /correlated effort to fit the restoration narrative. How can this VERY important date not be known considering how important it is compared to other less important things that were documented?

2- Changes in D&C about Polygamy (Section on Monogramy removed from Book of Commandments and section 132 added to current D&C). Also, book of mormon being the "fullness" of the gospel and Jacob denouncing polygamy.

1- Book of Abraham

Well, I have a lot of them!!

But, the three that come immediately to mind are:

1- Polygamy/Polyandry

2- Book of Mormon

3- First Vision



************************

I can't pin down a top 3

BoM translation/Historicity was a big one
First Vision issues
Universal Gospel was very problematic for me.

• 3. Historical / Doctrinal / Historicity / DNA / HeartSell™ etc. issues; The list is pretty much endless.

• 2. The LDS Corporation™ is institutionally dishonest.

• 1. It Just. Doesn't. Work. The LDS Corporation™ is completely incapable of living up to any of it's grand and wonderful promises. It also does not teach it's members any realistic coping mechanisms to deal with real life or real relationships.

My personal points of trouble or shelf-overload were:

• One and only true church - and a huge world with vast arrays of beliefs, most people holding a belief system based on what they were born into.

• Old Testament and particularly the current emphasis on the literal rather than symbolic reading of the testaments.

• Modern day prophet who doesn't prophesy anything useful or modern, like how to break free from depression, which would be a modern-day problem considering the use of prescription drugs for anxiety and depression right in our own state of Utah.

Here are mine (at the moment):

• Prayer doesn't work and is not a reliable way of determining truth;

• The institutional Church holds its members to a level of honesty it doesn't follow itself;

• Too many of the actions of Church leaders have been morally indefensible.

Ooh ooh, me next!

--Prop 8 and everything associated with the church's stance on homosexual relationships was the first big item in my shelf, from like 12 years old when they decided this would be an appropriate topic for kids. Let's just put this one down to it being a right-wing church that tries to claim it's politically neutral.
--Never once did I feel the spirit in a church setting, receive an answer to prayers, or otherwise receive revelation. This weighs pretty heavily when it's all anybody else every talks about at church.
--The church has lied about its history regarding just about everything I was taught. The Book of Mormon translation, the Book of Abraham, polygamy, the Seed of Cain... the list goes on and on and on. It's an institutionally dishonest organization that takes that institutional dishonesty to the bank, misusing funds that members feel required to pay, often doing significant financial harm.

To paraphrase:

1. Too politically and culturally conservative.
2. God doesn't talk to me.
3. Liars and thieves.

1. Institutional dishonesty.
2. Dishonesty by the institution.
3. Lack of honesty by the institution.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:39 pm 1. Institutional dishonesty.
2. Dishonesty by the institution.
3. Lack of honesty by the institution.

Point of order, RR - those "three" are but one...I'm quite sure you could come up with some additional issues..

Only need one:
Despite claims to the contrary there is absolutely no evidence that these men speak, or have ever spoken, for god on any level whatsoever.

Stig wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:02 pm

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:39 pm 1. Institutional dishonesty.
2. Dishonesty by the institution.
3. Lack of honesty by the institution.

Point of order, RR - those "three" are but one...I'm quite sure you could come up with some additional issues..

1. Lying by omission
2. Obfuscation
3. Carefully worded denials

In order of importance:

1. The crappy way they treat women.
2. The crappy way they treated blacks.
3 The crappy way they treat LGTB.

God's one true church should, above everything else, be kind and gentle and loving toward "the least of these."

In order that I tripped over them in my life:

1. Joseph just didn't seem like a decent human being in the lessons taught in PRIMARY. So, I never could accept him as a prophet, because God would not pick a jerk as his prophet.
2. In high school I had a gay best friend, and back then even feelings of being gay were a terrible sin. I could never accept that a. Feelings could be a sin, only actions. b. That my dear friend was evil.
3. Once I decided the church was screwed up in how it treated gays, it was a small step to deciding that it was also screwed up in how it treated blacks. (1970)

So, I was pretty much on my way out of the church when I graduated highschool, but I thought there must be something terribly wrong with me, seeing as I was the only one I knew who had problems accepting that everything with the church was wonderful. Then I got married in the temple and it was pretty much over. I just could not imagine a God who needed secret handshakes to recognize his own children.

In no particular order, here are mine:

-Dehumanizing doctrines and teachings. Just a few examples:
Polygamy (women are objects to own)
Chastity lessons (girls are "likened" unto various food items and taught they are things to be consumed by men)
Body shaming- For boys, it sounds like you guys were shamed for how your body naturally works. We were shamed for having bodies, but they were less shameful if we kept them covered up.

-Creating ideals and standards that are outside our locus of control, like Fam Proc
Women are told that the only way to true happiness is to be a married in the temple, to a return missionary, fertile SHAM. Not all of these things are within our complete control. So it is cruel to make this standard of ultimate righteousness because it tricks women into thinking if they are righteous enough they CAN control these things. The wife with fertility issues, the unmarried 30 year old, are both going to think "if only I were more righteous I would be blessed with a life in line with the teachings of our prophets..."

-And speaking of prophets, seers and revelators, ours are full of sh*t.
It took me reading Rock Waterman's blog, in the very early days of my faith crisis, to really realize just how full of sh*t they are, but-wow. When I was TBM, I loved that we had a prophet that talked to God. It made me feel so special. I would look to him and the other Q15 for spiritual nourishment, but at best I got bland, lifeless teachings. At worst they shell out sexism, racism and homophobia. Now I can see them for what they are. And it sickens me to know that people really believe the BS that these men spout is from God. How do the Q15 sleep at night? People take their lives because they believe the things these men say are coming from God.

Great topic JENuWIN!

Also Happy Valentines Day to you and all of our NOM brethren and sisters.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:29 pm

Stig wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:02 pm

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:39 pm 1. Institutional dishonesty.
2. Dishonesty by the institution.
3. Lack of honesty by the institution.

Point of order, RR - those "three" are but one...I'm quite sure you could come up with some additional issues..

1. Lying by omission
2. Obfuscation
3. Carefully worded denials

Brother RR, I sense that you have a concern over the institutional Church's commitment to honesty. Will you elaborate on those feelings, please? [/Commitment Pattern manipulation]

Stig wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:53 pm

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:29 pm

Stig wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:02 pm

Point of order, RR - those "three" are but one...I'm quite sure you could come up with some additional issues..

1. Lying by omission
2. Obfuscation
3. Carefully worded denials

Brother RR, I sense that you have a concern over the institutional Church's commitment to honesty. Will you elaborate on those feelings, please? [/Commitment Pattern manipulation]

Honesty. It's not our best policy.
We're not paid leaders. No, seriously we're not paid much.
The doctrine never changes. No, seriously it doesn't change.
The BOM is the most correct book. With the most corrections.
Joseph was a monogamist. No, really he was (wink wink).
No tithing was used to pay for (insert name of real estate project here).
We don't hide our history. You can find that web site link buried in the middle of an essay you'll never find on the website.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:01 pm

Stig wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:53 pm

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:29 pm

1. Lying by omission
2. Obfuscation
3. Carefully worded denials

Brother RR, I sense that you have a concern over the institutional Church's commitment to honesty. Will you elaborate on those feelings, please? [/Commitment Pattern manipulation]

Honesty. It's not our best policy.
We're not paid leaders. No, seriously we're not paid much.
The doctrine never changes. No, seriously it doesn't change.
The BOM is the most correct book. With the most corrections.
Joseph was a monogamist. No, really he was (wink wink).
No tithing was used to pay for (insert name of real estate project here).
We don't hide our history. You can find that web site link buried in the middle of an essay you'll never find on the website.

[Commitment Pattern manipulation]Thank you for sharing your feelings, Brother RR. I can understand why you might feel the institutional Church may have been less than forthcoming on these matters. Can you think of a reason God might allow these things to occur, but still claim the Church as His? [/Commitment Pattern manipulation]

1. Polygamy/Polyandry

2. The corporate style hierarchal leadership that gives only spin and half truths which it claims to be revelation.

3. The fact that mormons are 0.2% of the world's population but claim to be the only ones with the answers.

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:13 pm 1. Polygamy/Polyandry

2. The corporate style hierarchal leadership that gives only spin and half truths which it claims to be revelation.

3. The fact that mormons are 0.2% of the world's population but claim to be the only ones with the answers.

It is okay, Culper Jr., the work has been "hastened" to get us caught up with number 3.

1) eternal marriage;

Who ever said we wouldn't be with our spouse or loved ones in heaven, oh ya the church, they produce the sickness and produce the cure. Also J. Smith tied eternal marriage to polygamy and polyandry. That was the new and everlasting covenant.

2) baptism for the dead, along with the other after death ordinances;

Magical words have to be said exactly perfect and by the right person. John Larsen spoke about this in a podcast. It's wrote repetitive words. People's salvation depend on snot nose kids in rexburg Idaho.

3) focus, obsession with money;

Required tithes to be a member in good standing and a full participant in the church. They work you over every year to make sure you have paid your full amount or they take your temple recommend away. They ask you in interviews if you are current on your tithes. They are great at making money and manipulate people to pony up. With absolutely no accountability on where or what the money is used for. I really don't understand why this has been tolerated by the members for so long

That's my top three right now.

Oh and they are really concerned about you wearing your undies in the right way, especially at night

AllieOop wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:52 am
1- Polygamy/Polyandry

2- Book of Mormon

3- First Vision

I'll upvote these three.