Old NOM chiming in

[August]

Hi everyone old and new!

I just wanted to log on and say hi again. I've been with NOM since ... well I can't remember. I first found RFM in 2004 and then NOM not long after. I was under a different name back then and had to create a new log-in around 2010 under August. Then around a year ago I changed jobs and moved to a different state and subsequently lost all my passwords to various web pages include NOM. Coincidentally, the old NOM board went down around that time but I didn't find out till a few months later when I tried to log back in. Not being able to find my password and not being able to find a website, I gave up. But alas, I found both and here I am.

So what can I bring to the table? In 2004 I started reading everything I could get my hands about church history and in 2006 I mentally checked out for good. Completely. But I'm still a member in good standing because of family. One child has completed a mission since then and another one his putting in papers soon. Another will probably marry before too long and not being temple worthy is unacceptable. I speak the language of "middle way" very fluently. I've seen shit. I know all about radars and how to fly under them. But most importantly, I know the pain of living a double life and not being true to yourself. To be fair, I don't see this way of life forever. My youngest will be leaving the house soon and things are going to get real. But if I can offer a thought to anyone about the middle way, I'd love to help.

TL;DR Old NOMer checking in. Been living the middle way now for over a decade. Hi!

[RubinHighlander]

Welcome back!

I'm sorry you can't yet escape from behind the Zion Curtain.I admire your ability to live under the repression for the sake of your family, it can be very painful at times. The patience is strong with this one. I hope you can soon find full freedom. Your experience will definitely benefit many here on NOM.

[Red Ryder]

Welcome back August!

I'm a fellow 2004 RFM poster. I was "Chreaster Mo" back then which reflected the two times a year I wanted to go to church.

I loved RFM back then as it had a nice community feel much like NOM does today. Around 2007 I found NOM and thought who are these people trying to live the middle way. I finally realized it was people like us trying to make our marriages and family commitments work despite our lack of mormon magic mojo sauce.

Funny how things come full circle, isn't it?

[MalcolmVillager]

Welcome back August. Decades of the middle is mentally painful to consider. I am relatively new in the middle with only occasional CD episodes followed by a rush to the shelf until the recent FC over the last 3. The last 1 year has been very drastic with almost zero belief left, but some hope, and lots of community and family ties to the church.

IDK if I can make it another 15 years until my you rest leaves the home.

We hope to hear from you from time to time.

[2bizE]

Welcome back august. Always good to hear from pre-essay NOMs. I've been NOMish for about 5 years and after the essays I have had a faith crisis.
I am trying to live the middle way, and welcome any advice.
What are some secrets for balancing a TBM wife with church, tithing, etc?

[MalcolmVillager]

Welcome back august. Always good to hear from pre-essay NOMs. I've been NOMish for about 5 years and after the essays I have had a faith crisis.
I am trying to live the middle way, and welcome any advice.
What are some secrets for balancing a TBM wife with church, tithing, etc?

I will jump in with a few answers of things that have worked for me, and a few that haven't.

Things that didn't work:
1- Anything fast (slow is the key).
2- Anything snarky or sarcastic (sincerity is a must or she will think you are not taking this seriously).
3- Anything with a personal benefit that goes against the TBM rules (i.e. if you want to skip church to be lazy, or to do something of no worth like sleeping in or watching football will not work, while wanting to spend time with the family or go on a hike to feel closer to God's creations can work).
4- Asking her to watch videos that go too far (this could be YouTube anti stuff or anything "Adult", because even though you may resonate strongly with parts, she will assume you agree with or like 100% of it).
5- Anything that comes across as an "I know" statement that contradicts LDS doctrine, policy, or history (when you sound as brainwashed as a TBM in your convictions against the church you lose open-minded perspective and credibility).
6- Anything that comes across in any way as a threat, direct or indirect, against all the eternal promises of mormon happiness (eternal families, salvation, temple covenants, evil speaking, etc...) as this is her primary focus, goal, and purpose as a Mormon spouse (this is huge!).
7- Anything negative or condescending about Mormonism faith, culture, or attribites.
8- Anything that lacks love as a primary motivator or delivery method.
That is a pretty good list of areas where I have personally "stepped in it" to small or large degree at one point or another with my DW.

So here are a few things that have worked:
1- Asking sincere questions (when you are sincere, even when you challenge the most fundamental things, she will respect your questions).
2- Showing increased commitment to her and the family (the biggest challenge from the spouse of someone going through a FC is the fear of loss and that all the slippery slope stories will happen to them and their family. Let her know that although you are seeking the truth, feel mislead, and are really struggling it doesn't mean you have changed who you are, your desires, or your commitment to her. Once I laid this to rest, and it took several angles and conversations for it to click for her, she was able to let go of fears and let down her guard, then have compassion for my situation).
3- Using spiritual Judo to leverage church taught principles against itself. For example going to God for personal inspiration or studying (yeah, even from church sources like the Essays or books at Deseret Bookstore).
4- Finding everyday opportunities to show DW and kids things that go against the "dominant narrative" of the church, like evolution, polygamy, blacks and the PH, how the church sold genealogy to Ancestry.com for $60m. Make sure you do it in more of a "I just found out and was surprised" vs "did you know those @$$hole church leaders completely lied to us?"
5- Using a 5 or 10 deposits to each withdrawal ratio. Make sure you are extra committed to the family and your spouse. Make positive comments about the good things you see in the church or mormonism in general. Talk about the things you appreciate in your own life from the church. Recognize the "spirit" and the goodness of God (even if you really don't believe the same way as before). Then when you do slip up and point out the crazy or illogical things from time to time, you will still have a positive balance.
6- Tithing. Since you asked about this specifically; here is what I did. I brought up the subject in a positive light several times and introduced the history of tithing as well as the various acceptable ways to pay (gross, net, increase) making sure she knew all were acceptable to the church. We were generous gross payers for 18 years. I then mentioned that I was considering going to net, to which she questioned if it was because of my FC. I said probably, but that net was completely justified. I told her I was going to do some math. I spent a few weeks and did the math just on the last 10 years. I asked her how much she thought we had paid. Her guess was a mere 10% of what we actually paid. I told her the number (which would have paid off our house and bought a small cabin), and she was shocked. I then proposed that we switch to net, and she was fine with it. A few weeks later, and this is the best part, I mentioned I was considering doing some math and correcting our over payments over the next 25 years until retirement. I calculated what we would need to pay so that at retirement we would have been lifetime net payers. She agreed that it would be fair since many people pay net their whole lives, and that is what the end result would be. We now pay a very reduced amount that, according to my calculations will make us lifetime net payers at retirement, even though we are paying way less than net now (even less than allowing her to pay gross or net on "her half", which is also another compromise I have heard about). This way we are both full tithe payers. Oh, and we went through the process so local leaders cannot see our direct payments to the church (I have a post here about that process if you search it).

Anyway, marriage is a compromise and this is how we have made it work. I do resonate with Mormonism and appreciate all that it gave me. I hope the church will change in significant ways. My issues are not that mistakes have been made, but that they have been covered up, that there still is no transparency, and that equality (race, gender, orientation) is not an option.

I hope for a church that has that, but it will not happen in 200 years. I just don't know if I can make it work for 50 more of my years, or that I would wish this on my kids or grandchildren.

Good luck 2bizE and the rest of us going through this middle way.

[Zack Tacorin]

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[Zack Tacorin Dos]

Seems I created two separate accounts as I was struggling with NOM withdrawals as the new NOM site came up. Hehe. I'll stick with this account since it has most of my posts.

August - Good to have you back. I'm glad things are going well for you. I'm not sure how you've managed to navigate the middle way for so long. I'm out and on the surface live a Mormony life style, but those in the know (including local leadership) are aware that I have no belief in the truth claims of the Church, and I don't tithe. I couldn't live balancing in the middle. I can hardly stand to do the little I do in the Church now. My hat's off to you!

MalcolmVillager - Jeeze dude! I wish I could have had you coaching me when I first went through my belief transition. Great stuff!

Zack

[MalcolmVillager]

Seems I created two separate accounts as I was struggling with NOM withdrawals as the new NOM site came up. Hehe. I'll stick with this account since it has most of my posts.

August - Good to have you back. I'm glad things are going well for you. I'm not sure how you've managed to navigate the middle way for so long. I'm out and on the surface live a Mormony life style, but those in the know (including local leadership) are aware that I have no belief in the truth claims of the Church, and I don't tithe, and I don't go to meetings except for SM. I couldn't live balancing in the middle. I can hardly stand to do the little I do in the Church now. My hat's off to you!

MalcolmVillager - Jeeze dude! I wish I could have had you coaching me when I first went through my belief transition. Great stuff!

Zack

Zack, most of that is really just parroting what I have heard here, with some observations from personal al experience. I should probably post that somewhere visibe to remind me of how far I have come and also to not "step in it" with DW and family again. It is so easy to think that they will understand but they just can't from their TBM perspective.

It's good to have "both" of you back (uno y dos). Maybe you could debate yourself sometime. I bet you would win!