Gender roles

[Truth or Dare]

I mostly lurk, but I'm going to take a stab at a topic that has always bothered me, even as a TBM. It might be a little controversial, so I apologize if we all do not see eye to eye on this, but that's what good discourse is all about.

A common topic on this board is gender inequality in the Church. No doubt that this is a reality...period...so please don't misunderstand what I am about to say.

Before I left, there seemed to be this subconscious effort in the Church to pay lip service to the sisters because they can't hold the priesthood, hold high callings, etc. For example, in F&TM every male speaker's testimony always came back to him basically saying that he couldn't even screw in a light bulb without his DW. Women did the same thing in reverse, always building up motherhood and domesticity so they could feel like they really were equal, or even better. This then lead to abusive relationships at home, but it was women abusing the men! I still see this in so many Mormon relationships, even in my own family. The husband is basically a limp noodle that does whatever he is told because he is lucky enough to have the priesthood, and besides, he freely admits every F&TM that he can't even tie his shoes without his DW so why shouldn't he do what he's told. Sorry, this may seem like NOM heresy , but I see more female abuse in TBM marriages than the other way around. In my opinion, it's an interesting unintended consequence of male dominance in the Church.

DW used to buy into this hook, line, and sinker. I wouldn't play ball, and it drove her nuts. Despite working and being in grad school, she didn't understand why I wasn't cleaning the bathroom and changing every diaper, even though she wasn't working. After all, so and so in the ward did that and more. Now that we are both out things are so much better! We both have our roles which are pretty much the same as before, but we help out each other when we can without this perverted Mormon gender issue hanging over our heads.

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. Interested to hear what all of you think.

[a1986]

Hmm that's interesting. I'm thinking of the couples I know and some do fit this description, but not all. A lot of the married couple members I know seem to be genuinely respectful of each other. It seems to me that the men who have the 'higher" callings in the ward tend to be more of the mild, gentler types who truly do seem to make good leaders and have supportive wives.

My sister-in-law and her husband might fit this a bit more, though my SIL is very kind and practices restraint in this way so as not to become abusive toward her husband. She is definitely the more assertive one and engages more with the kids. It seems like at church and when people come over for dinner they like to give the impression that he is the one "in charge" and the "man of the house" so as to fall in line with typical church gender roles I guess.

[Enoch Witty]

Yep, this certainly happens. I have a sort-of friend who refers to his wife with this sort of language: "She won't let me do X," "I'll have to ask before I can spend money" (like, a lunch's worth of money), "I wish I was allowed to own a videogame console," and the like. It's possible this wife is the reason I describe him as a "sort-of" friend, although his posting Matt Walsh articles in earnest for the last few years is the real reason.

[MoPag]

The imbalance and inequality in the church really aren't good for anyone. I also think the church teaches us to see others, not as people but as the roles they are supposed to fulfill. Then we start to treat people like objects and this is when abuse starts.

[MerrieMiss]

It goes both ways. I know women in the church who wear the pants and I know women who demure to everything their husbands say. I think it has more to do with the personalities of the people involved and the types of role models/families they come from. More cafeteria Mormonism, even with gender roles.

[RubinHighlander]

We both have our roles which are pretty much the same as before, but we help out each other when we can without this perverted Mormon gender issue hanging over our heads.

Yes!

I went through some of this as a NOM with a TBM wife; it was pretty minor but the pressure was there in that I was not fulfilling my role as a patriarch in the family. This included things like calling the family to pray on a regular basis, or demanding a consistent home evening or scripture study. Ironically, the misogamy in the church was a big item on her shelf. It was primarily her guilt that was driving her, I know she didn't really like doing those things.

But now we are both out, there's no big mormon guilt cloud hanging over our heads, our relationship has never been better! We were always pretty equally yoked. Although I still take care of the heavy yard work and car repairs and she does most the cleaning, we still help each other out in those areas where it makes sense.

[Give It Time]

My VT recently apologized to me for not being more supportive of me during my divorce from my abusive spouse. She said that I came across as the controlling one. First of all, how? I didn't talk to many people. I kept to myself. I was having testimony issues from the day I moved into the ward. How?

Then I remembered. My ex used to break things that annoyed him: electric blanket, ceiling fan, etc. One Thanksgiving, my nephew joined us. I started a load of dishes before the meal. However, I needed to get something from the dishwasher and forgot to turn it back on. When the dishwasher isn't started again, it starts beeping after about a half an hour. The process of getting it going again is not as simple as locking the door and pushing a button and I didn't want to fuss with it. I knew this beeping was exactly the kind of thing that would set off my ex. I didn't want unpleasantness on Thanksgiving in front of my children and nephew. I kind of needed the dishwasher and the dishes, especially on a holiday and impending Black Friday. I got up and nervously turned off the dishwasher and muttered to myself that we couldn't have this happening, today. I went back to the table. My nephew was looking at me like I was nuts and my ex was smirking.

I must have done some things like this while I was at church. Little things that prevented public unpleasantness. So what if I looked a little controlling and crazy? I thought to myself, I was protecting my home.

From my ex's behavior at church. I'm hard of hearing and I really can't hear all that well at church unless I'm under a speaker or in the front row. My ex used to ask people to move and tell them I made him ask them to move (when I was perfectly fine with not hearing) and never asked him to ask people to move. He would buy me things he wanted, but I didn't and say I made him buy them. He telecommuted and garaged his car, both his ideas and both things I acquiesced to. Then he told the ward members I wouldn't let him leave the house.

What you say is happening may be happening, it's true. But you're not seeing the entire story. You simply don't know what you don't know.

As for me, I'm going to be letting my VT know I appreciate her apology and then I'm going to let her know, I view it as a compliment that I was seen as the crazy controlling one, because it means I was willing to dive under the bus to honor my marriage, my ex and his reputation.

[trophywife26.2]

I think the church fosters unhealthy attitudes about gender for all involved and it manifests in many different ways.

I generally leave other people's relationships alone. None of my business. I don't really see this as a widespread issue, but I don't know, don't care, don't meddle.

I think a good thing to do in a relationship if you feel your relationship and responsibilities are unequal is sit down with your spouse and write down the responsibilities you each think you have each been taking on as responsibilities and compare what you each see each other as doing and yourselves as doing and if your lists match up or not and if you are giving each other credit and if things need to be adjusted, let go, or outsourced.

It may seem unfair to some for a stay at home parent to expect a working parent to help at home after a long day at work, but a stay at home parent's day is just as long, equal hours in the day, but different demands. At least at work a person can poop by themselves. With most jobs a person can probably eat lunch while it's hot and without being interrupted at least some of the time. I can't wait to go back to work in a few months. It will honestly be a relief for me.

Namaste

[Give It Time]

Actually, the stay at home parent is 24/7/365. Night time duty when the kids are sick of afraid of monsters. Up before everyone. Make the evening meal, dishes, homework, baths. Saturday's, Sundays, holidays, family vacations. Church is frequently childcare to the nth degree. With being called to the primary, cubs or young womens. The working parent has weekends off, takes sick leave, vacations and retire. None of the above for the stay-at-home parent.

Aside from that, excellent points about sitting down, writing it out and discussing it.

Also, excellent point about not judging others. That was my concern. We simply don't know what is the full story. When a couple divorces, it's no one's business but that couples. If there's any way to make it your business, let them know that you'll be glad to help out in some way. Both of these people looked at their lives and decided the path of less convenience was the more peaceful way.

[aerin]

What I observe in mormon relationships (and others) is a lack of communication about expectations (re gender roles). So many assumptions challenge a relationship. Who will change the diapers. Who will make enough money to provide. Who will fix the sink.

Mormons (and others) are not taught skills to communicate, negotiate, deal with conflict. Women are often taught to "stay sweet", so they can feel guilty about asking for what they need. Men are taught "happy wife, happy life", but this may or may not be best for them or the family. For example, maybe the mom wants to homeschool, while the father does not want his wife to homeschool. How does a couple resolve this difference? How do they move forward where everyone understands the issues and each side?

When two people aren't free to ask for what they want, and trust that they can negotiate with their partners, it doesn't work. When a couple doesn't feel free to share their feelings, (IMO) that's when the nagging and passive aggressive behavior comes in.

In mormonism, there is so much that is unsaid and assumed. We will go to church every Sunday, pay tithing, go to the temple, keep food storage. He's going to provide for the family, she's going to make dinner. All those things are great if a couple agrees but if they don't, it becomes complicated. I've always said strict gender roles hurt everyone, women and men. All men (and women) are not the same, just like all couples are not the same. Life is not one size fits all.

[Give It Time]

Adding, I think you're right. We weren't taught to communicate. We're not unique in that, but we bring our own casserole dish of cheesy potatoes to the meal that is this problem. Obedience, unquestioning obedience, is a communication stopper.

If it hasn't been mentioned, the guys were talking about the tensions of women in submissive situations lashing out or manipulating the outcome. Gender roles set us at odds with one another. It has us viewing the other as different and when someone is different, it's easier to see them as an enemy. It's easier for men to view themselves as more privileged and to get frustrated when life and the wife don't deliver according to some expectation. It's easier for women to view their husbands as really tall children who can't seem to manage making a peanut butter sandwich (not how I view the posters, here, but I did hear a woman laughing about this, long ago). Misogyny and misandry grow very happily when we have gender roles.