NOM

If anyone is up for a doctrinal conversation, I thought I would bring up one of my pet issues.

In D&C 19, God commands Martin Harris the following:

21 And I command you that you preach naught but repentance, and show not these things unto the world until it is wisdom in me.

Now I have my own opinion as to what he is saying. But I am curious. How would any of you answer this question.

What was God commanding Martin Harris to NOT show unto the world?

Was this before the loss of the hundred sixteen pages? If so I would suspect that what it's talking about.

What have you got in mind, HIPS?

hiding in plain sight wrote:If anyone is up for a doctrinal conversation, I thought I would bring up one of my pet issues.

In D&C 19, God commands Martin Harris the following:

21 And I command you that you preach naught but repentance, and show not these things unto the world until it is wisdom in me.

Now I have my own opinion as to what he is saying. But I am curious. How would any of you answer this question.

What was God commanding Martin Harris to NOT show unto the world?

Martin Harris was a "visionary man" and followed a number of fringe religious movements throughout his life outside of the LDS Church. My most cynical take on this is that Harris had some kind of spiritual impression and Joseph Smith made him think it was super special, super sacred, and then super secret. This gave Harris an "insider" status that he had personal knowledge of the mysteries of God. The rest of the heathen world was simply not as spiritually mature as Harris to be allowed this knowledge.

It's a conundrum because believers and skeptics can only disagree about whatever he saw without ever knowing what it was. The LDS church has a long history of telling members to hold their most sacred experiences to be personal and not to be openly shared. Because inevitably when lots of people know about a "sacred" experience it makes those experiences look pretty pedantic and common. Public perception of the temple rites simply look "weird" and "culty" and this really annoys believers.

Martin Harris held a pretty solid testimony of Joseph Smith's movement for most of his life, culminating with him returning to the saints before he died. Modern believers consider any disbelief of spiritual experiences to be a personal fault of skeptics themselves. The correlated filter of the history of Martin Harris continues this tension.

Hagoth wrote:Was this before the loss of the hundred sixteen pages? If so I would suspect that what it's talking about.

What have you got in mind, HIPS?

Read D&C 19. The answer is squarely in those few versus about what he didn't want Martin to share with the world at large. Let me know what you see.

hiding in plain sight wrote:

Hagoth wrote:Was this before the loss of the hundred sixteen pages? If so I would suspect that what it's talking about.

What have you got in mind, HIPS?

Read D&C 19. The answer is squarely in those few versus about what he didn't want Martin to share with the world at large. Let me know what you see.

The key to this question is look at the verses surrounding this quote where God is talking about sharing a "mystery" only know to apostles.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it!

OK, this is the section that was "revealed" when Harris, a universalist, had a meltdown when he first read about a literal hell of fire and brimstone in the BoM. He freaked out and demanded a "commandment" (revelation from Joseph). This was a problem for Joseph because he needed Harris's money to publish the book, so he gave Harris this special revelation that explained that "endless torment" and "eternal punishment" aren't real things. They are just named that to make them sound scarier to keep people in line.

Harris was being warned to keep that doctrine to himself because if people knew the lake of lava was really a lie that God used to scare people straight they wouldn't be so intimidated into following Joesph's... I mean God's... orders.

Then it gets around to what this is really all about:

26 And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing of the Book of Mormon, which contains the truth and the word of God—

And seals the deal with a classic protection racket clause:

33 And misery thou shalt receive if thou wilt slight these counsels, yea, even the destruction of thyself and property.

It's all stunningly transparent if you actually read the words and consider what they're saying, isn't it? What's kind of amusing about it is that this is the source of the ol' milk-before-meat apologetic that is so beloved by leaders and teachers in the church. Another example of a cherished teaching gem that was plucked out of the latrine.

Hagoth wrote: he gave Harris this special revelation that explained that "endless torment" and "eternal punishment" aren't real things. They are just named that to make them sound scarier to keep people in line.

Harris was being warned to keep that doctrine to himself because if people knew the lake of lava was really a lie that God used to scare people straight they wouldn't be so intimidated into following Joesph's... I mean God's... orders.

Agreed. Behold the mystery of Godliness: Scare the %^&* out of them to keep them in line, but just kidding, everybody will make it in the end.

But isn't this at odds with "God will beat them with a few stripes and at last they shall be saved" business in 2 Ne?

achilles wrote:

Hagoth wrote: he gave Harris this special revelation that explained that "endless torment" and "eternal punishment" aren't real things. They are just named that to make them sound scarier to keep people in line.

Harris was being warned to keep that doctrine to himself because if people knew the lake of lava was really a lie that God used to scare people straight they wouldn't be so intimidated into following Joesph's... I mean God's... orders.

Agreed. Behold the mystery of Godliness: Scare the %^&* out of them to keep them in line, but just kidding, everybody will make it in the end.

But isn't this at odds with "God will beat them with a few stripes and at last they shall be saved" business in 2 Ne?

What was the mystery?

Hell ends for the vast majority of people.

You are both correct.

Ding. ding. ding. ding. ding.

You both get two gold stars and a thousand pounds of gold bullion.

And you are correct. This directly contradicts everything taught as DOCTRINE in the book of mormon and supports all of the false doctrine in taught in the book of mormon, like the one you pointed out of getting beat with a few stripes and then saved.

I continue to be flabbergasted that mormons will boldly declare their testimony that the Book of Mormon is TRUE, yet entirely miss this huge issue.

Hagoth wrote:OK, this is the section that was "revealed" when Harris, a universalist, had a meltdown when he first read about a literal hell of fire and brimstone in the BoM. He freaked out and demanded a "commandment" (revelation from Joseph). This was a problem for Joseph because he needed Harris's money to publish the book, so he gave Harris this special revelation that explained that "endless torment" and "eternal punishment" aren't real things. They are just named that to make them sound scarier to keep people in line.

Harris was being warned to keep that doctrine to himself because if people knew the lake of lava was really a lie that God used to scare people straight they wouldn't be so intimidated into following Joesph's... I mean God's... orders.

Then it gets around to what this is really all about:

26 And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing of the Book of Mormon, which contains the truth and the word of God—

And seals the deal with a classic protection racket clause:

33 And misery thou shalt receive if thou wilt slight these counsels, yea, even the destruction of thyself and property.

It's all stunningly transparent if you actually read the words and consider what they're saying, isn't it? What's kind of amusing about it is that this is the source of the ol' milk-before-meat apologetic that is so beloved by leaders and teachers in the church. Another example of a cherished teaching gem that was plucked out of the latrine.

Hagoth for the win. You are truly a scholar and a gentleman!

hiding in plain sight wrote:Hagoth for the win. You are truly a scholar and a gentleman!

Actually, I learned this from you.

Hagoth wrote:

hiding in plain sight wrote:Hagoth for the win. You are truly a scholar and a gentleman!

Actually, I learned this from you.

Well then....

I guess I am a scholar and a gentleman.

D&C 19:4-12 just doesn't make sense! There is more written that just endless torment and eternal damnation.

Nephi said:

And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out... (1 Nephi 15:35).

Alma talked about the condition of people after the resurrection, so it can't be referring to a temporary state in the Spirit World:

Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other— (Alma 41:4).

Also also said the duration of punishment is as eternal as the soul, which goes on literally forever:

Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul (Alma 42:16).

So, should I believe the Book of Mormon or the D&C?

Shawn wrote:So, should I believe the Book of Mormon or the D&C?

What a silly question. You believe both, but not at the same time. Everything in Mormonism is a multiple choice question and most of the answers can be construed to be true in isolation from each other, and if properly suspended in a jar of apologetic nuance. Except gay marriage. That's a true or false question.

Example:
How did Joseph translate the Book of Abraham from the papyrus?
a. It is really there, but encoded in complex writing that can be translated into either the Book of Abraham or the Book of Breathings, depending on whether your are a stiffnecked scholar or a prophet.

b. The papyrus is a degenerate copy of the real Book of Abraham that got messed up by the Egyptians over the generations. Joseph just put it back to its original form

c. The papyrus does not contain the Book of Abraham, but it was given to Joseph to acted as a catalyst that opened his mind to the real Book of Abraham, which he received by revelation.

d. Whatever works for you between now and tithing settlement.

Hint: it's a trick question. All answers are acceptable, and you can switch back and forth between them as needed.

The prophets are both infallible and capable of learning from past mistakes (however slowly).

Shawn wrote: So, should I believe the Book of Mormon or the D&C?

And there you have the crux of the problem. How can they both be true?

They can't.

And in this case, we have God confessing to Him doing it on purpose. "to work upon the hearts of men".

I have used this disconnect with my wife to help explain to her why I am now a self described Universalist. If God would teach a very clear plan of salvation for 1000 years, through the BOM and a dozen prophets, which turns out to not be true, then how can we know anything for sure in the mormon world?

How do we know that what we believe today (as mormons) is not just version 2.0 of the fake plan of salvation? How do we know we are not just the nephites being taught something that is incorrect and something different will be revealed later?

If you are honest with yourself, as a TBM mormon, you can't really come to any other conclusion. God taught a false plan of salvation once. And you (as a mormon) can never really know whether or not he is doing it again.


I tell my wife, finite sin will never require an infinite punishment. That is why I am a universalist.

If God can't commit to his plan I don't see why I need to.

This is good. I'm so glad to be back on NOM. I missed you all............too many to mention.

Hagoth wrote:

Shawn wrote:So, should I believe the Book of Mormon or the D&C?

What a silly question. You believe both, but not at the same time. Everything in Mormonism is a multiple choice question and most of the answers can be construed to be true in isolation from each other, and if properly suspended in a jar of apologetic nuance. Except gay marriage. That's a true or false question….

It all makes sense now!

.......and perhaps Joseph Smith learned a lesson. Giving people the idea of having a special super secret knowledge, is a flattering way of winning their their confidence.