NOM

I was just reading an account of David Whitmer recalling the angel showing him the plates. This has been discussed before, but I was wondering, why were there sealed plates? First of all let me state that even though I don't believe there were real gold plates (yet I'm willing accept the possibility) I think perhaps the witnesses saw a prop. In a court the witnesses would be the best evidence for the existence of the plates. Could it be that Joseph used a prop to show the witnesses? Such a prop would need to have engravings, which would take work. One way to reduce the number of engravings would be to say there were part of the plates sealed, put some kind of ring around the "sealed part" and show it to the witnesses. Any thoughts?

This sealed portion business never did make a lick of sense.

The weight of the gold plates with the dimensions given by Jos. Smith would be about 200 pounds. This from an article in the Ensign some time back.

Hmm, 200-lbs. Most people could not even budge the thing, but no prob-lem-o for Jos. Smith. Not only could he lift it, he could run with it, safely tucked under his arm, wrapped in a pillow case.

So, why add the extra 150 pounds of weight- the sealed portion? Good question.

For funzies, next time you go to a gym, try to lift the 100 pound dumbbells. Try- to lift it. If you can, then pick up the other one. Now, run with it.

Nuff said....

Gatorbait wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:43 amFor funzies, next time you go to a gym, try to lift the 100 pound dumbbells. Try- to lift it. If you can, then pick up the other one. Now, run with it.

Now try to run with it tucked under one arm while fending off attackers (successfully) with the other.

I think the purpose for the sealed plates was three-fold: 1) it created an even greater sense of mystery, 2) it left Joseph's translating open to a sequel if he ever felt the need of expanding on the BoM, 3)it was a pressure valve that would allow Joseph justify his authority by saying, "well that's in the sealed portion, you'll just have to trust me." That was an option he never used because he found much easier ways to do it just by receiving direct revelation or by "revealing" precious truths that have been taken out of the Bible.

I think JS figured it would make his fraud easier to get away with. Wasn't the story that us lowly humans weren't ready for the super secret awesome scriptures contained within the sealed portion so the lawd had to come repossess the plates?

If JS was given just the BoM portion, the lawd wouldn't require him to return the plates. Eventually someone would have been able to get their hands on those plates, or whatever the prop was, and JS's story would have crumbled.

Plus, it gives us something to look forward to. We all get new scriptures one day. Maybe Bednar will be the prophet who gets to go down and unlock the vault, pull out that seer stone, put it in his hat and translate the sealed portion.

I agree with others. The "Sealed Portion" of the fake plates was just another lie Joseph used as a bit of a carrot dangled in front of his followers. And as always: It's based on the faithfulness of the followers for it to be revealed, and SURPRISE! They're never faithful enough. I remember hearing that growing up. There was a whole bunch of super-awesome stuff in the "Sealed Portion" but we just weren't ready for it.

But, the fact is, Joseph didn't even use the "Unsealed Portion" to create the Book of Mormon that we have today, so really, the "Sealed Portion" is just as important as the "Unsealed Portion": Meaning that neither "Portion" matters. All that really matters is the Magic Rock™, and we know how much leadership likes to preach about that.

Besides, Christopher Nemelka has translated "The Sealed Portion" anyway. Nemelka used "the plates" for his translation just as much as Joseph did; So honestly, both should be equally valid.

http://thesealedportion.com/tsp/index.htm

Didn't the witnesses not even actually see the plates? I recall reading somewhere that they only saw them with "spiritual eyes?"

Why did they need to be sealed...if you didn't have to read directly from them?

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:55 am 2) it left Joseph's translating open to a sequel if he ever felt the need of expanding on the BoM

I agree that it left him some flexibility. I've had discussions before with TBMs regarding the lack of certain doctrines in the Book of Mormon (for example, the temple). The ambiguity of the "sealed portion" allowed them to respond with "Well, that must be in the sealed portion."

They were a prop - something square wrapped in a cloth. He had enough people hanging onto his stories and 'visions' that he could fool them into thinking the 'plates' were too sacred to see without the coverings. And, the more secret they were & the more sealed they were, the bigger the opportunity to keep the act going on & on.

The apologetic excuse for the weight of the plates from FairMormon is pretty lame as usual.

Some earnest believer at FairMormon wrote:Some critics assume that the "golden plates" are pure gold, or that they are a solid block of gold. Neither conclusion is warranted.
Pure gold plates would be too soft to hold engraving well. An alloy of gold and copper called "tumbaga," known in Mesoamerica, would suit both the appearance and weight of the plates.
The plates were not a solid block of gold, but a set of page-like leaves, which reduces the weight by about 50%.

Let's suppose the plates were entirely copper. A 4x6x6 block of copper would weigh about 60 pounds so that fits the description, but it severely devalues the worth of the "Golden" Plates. Suddenly all the attempts to steal Joseph's treasure look kind of lame when they were mostly copper. And I think we have all been in Sunday School lessons where Joseph's sterling character is established by how he resists wanting to make money off the "gold" in the plates.

Also, try running while carrying 60 pounds. Yes, I'm sure that Joseph was in good shape for an 1800s farm boy. But he was allegedly pursued by rival farm boys in similar physical shape. You are still going to be overtaken by any unencumbered pursuer.

Brent wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:27 am Why did they need to be sealed...if you didn't have to read directly from them?

those x-ray vision powered stones and hat should do the trick, right?

The plates were big enough to be seen with spiritual eyes and light enough to be hefted by Joseph Smith's sister with one arm. Plates composed of either gold-colored celestial gossamer or ectoplasm could account for both descriptions.

The church history museum has the box used by JS to hold the golden plates. They have also recreated the golden plates based on the physical dimensions of the plate as described by JS.

Notice anything problematic with those plates and that box?

Well, I don't see a sealed portion. Is that your point?

I think the point is "good luck sealing that box."

nibbler wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:31 pm I think the point is "good luck sealing that box."

Correct

It was a bit of a threadjack, but happened to pop into my mind when reading this.

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:40 am The apologetic excuse for the weight of the plates from FairMormon is pretty lame as usual.

Some earnest believer at FairMormon wrote:Some critics assume that the "golden plates" are pure gold, or that they are a solid block of gold. Neither conclusion is warranted.
Pure gold plates would be too soft to hold engraving well. An alloy of gold and copper called "tumbaga," known in Mesoamerica, would suit both the appearance and weight of the plates.
The plates were not a solid block of gold, but a set of page-like leaves, which reduces the weight by about 50%.

Let's suppose the plates were entirely copper. A 4x6x6 block of copper would weigh about 60 pounds so that fits the description, but it severely devalues the worth of the "Golden" Plates. Suddenly all the attempts to steal Joseph's treasure look kind of lame when they were mostly copper. And I think we have all been in Sunday School lessons where Joseph's sterling character is established by how he resists wanting to make money off the "gold" in the plates.

Also, try running while carrying 60 pounds. Yes, I'm sure that Joseph was in good shape for an 1800s farm boy. But he was allegedly pursued by rival farm boys in similar physical shape. You are still going to be overtaken by any unencumbered pursuer.

I wonder what type of matter transporter Moroni used to get all that metal to magically travel to Kolob without any sort of rocket thrust. If Moroni and all that gold was able to travel at the speed of light they would still have like 25,000 (those numbers may be way off) years before they even reach the nearest star, much less Kolob. Didn't some byu religion professor claim Kolob was the super massive black hole at the center of the Milky Way? If so, Moroni and the plates have another 100,000 years of travel at the speed of light to get home.

No doubt Joseph had a heavy object wrapped in a cloth and/or hidden in a box, but I don't think he needed an actual replica. The eight witness testimony is dissatisfying on many levels. When you put the pieces together I think they really just lifted a heavy object and examined a transcription of the characters on paper.

As far as the three witnesses go, I'm not sure Oliver said that much about it and Martin admitted it was only a mental image. A prop doesn't work for Whitmer because his description is much more elaborate and includes a table with all kinds of other goodies laid out on it including the Gadianton book of secret nastiness.

There is one film the church produced that dramatizes an instance where Joseph is transporting the plates at the bottom of a barrel of grain. Emma is with him and they get stopped by people wanting to take a look at the plates. So Joseph volunteers to scoop out every bit of grain so they can see that there are no plates for them to see. As a believer watching this movie this scene is tense because the plates are in jeopardy, but somehow God will protect them. The potential thieves get impatient and ride off before Joseph gets to the bottom of the grain barrel.

As a non-believer now, It occurs to me that there was nothing in the grain barrel. Joseph could boldly scoop through the grain because he knew that his magic plates could not be found since they did not exist. But he still had to put on a good show for Emma who is considered one of the unofficial witness of the plates.