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"These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:41 am
by didyoumythme
Why are members afraid to discuss the issues? This continues to be one of my biggest shelf items since my my ‘faith awakening’ began 6 months ago. At the beginning I would come to my father with questions, but it was difficult to have meaningful discussions as he was was unaware/skeptical of the facts I was learning.
He said things like, “these issues are old and have all been debunked” and “I know without a doubt ____ is true” etc. I tried to explain that I could consider faith if there wasn’t so much contradicting evidence that pointed the opposite way. I wanted to discuss these topics and be shown how this was all debunked. The problem was that he refused to read or watch anything I sent him, so we could never have a substantive discussion.
If my family cares so much about me, and my faith is the most important thing, then why would they refuse to engage with me on this all-important topic. I have waited 6 months for my father to watch a 15 minute video about the Book of Abraham so we could discuss it, but he hasn’t watched it. Something isn’t adding up here when they say, “We love you”, “We want to help”, then they refuse to provide the only help I need.
This is the biggest testament to me that its all fraud.
Re: "These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:27 am
by Red Ryder
I think it's important to understand that there are no good answers and deep down inside our TBM loved ones know that. I've pushed my in-laws pretty hard on some of my concerns around polygamy and teenage brides.
The response I get is "You just have to choose to believe" and the conversation is over.
It's as simple as that. We have to choose to believe Mormonism is true regardless of the facts and evidence that indicates it is not.
So where does that leave us? To become indifferent and find new things to so with our time and money. Life absolutely moves on. We just have to allow it to.
Re: "These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:00 am
by didyoumythme
Red Ryder wrote:I think it's important to understand that there are no good answers and deep down inside our TBM loved ones know that. I've pushed my in-laws pretty hard on some of my concerns around polygamy and teenage brides.
The response I get is "You just have to choose to believe" and the conversation is over.
It's as simple as that. We have to choose to believe Mormonism is true regardless of the facts and evidence that indicates it is not.
So where does that leave us? To become indifferent and find new things to so with our time and money. Life absolutely moves on. We just have to allow it to.
I think there are good answers to hard questions, they are just not the answers TBMs are comfortable with. To believe in the face of so much contradicting evidence is to deny reality. Belief isn't a choice, because thanks to our rational minds, we are compelled to draw certain conclusions based on basic principles of reason and logic. This is the only way we make sense of the world. This is part of the reason why many TBMs are afraid to read/watch/listen about the issues. They are afraid that they will be compelled to relinquish their testimonies. We don't remain indifferent, we draw the best conclusion we can and move on.
I am just fascinated by the way faith hangs by such a thin thread of ignorance. I have heard too many people say that they had to "stop learning about these topics" in order to maintain faith.
Re: "These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:10 am
by Red Ryder
I am just fascinated by the way faith hangs by such a thin thread of ignorance. I have heard too many people say that they had to "stop learning about these topics" in order to maintain faith.
I agree it's a fascinating paradox.
It's interesting how each person almost has to have a major event or awakening that breaks the thread of ignorance and allows us to think, question, and doubt.
I've often wondered if this process can be manufactured to push others out or if it has to occur naturally.
Re: "These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:11 am
by wtfluff
didyoumythme wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:41 am
Why are members afraid to discuss the issues?
Because they've been taught to be afraid of anything contradictory to their world-view, many of them since the instant they were born. The fear is real to them. It's literally a fear of eternal damnation. Fear is an excellent control mechanism, and the board of directors of the LDS corporation know this. Whether they realize it or not, they perpetuate the fear, to control their "subjects".
Re: "These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:22 am
by MalcolmVillager
My father told me to be very cautious about my studies. He "knows" about all the issues and studied them with many friends in the 80's. He was the only one of the 20 who was strong enough and didn't leave the church.
Occams Razor would imply that maybe, just maybe, when you follow the data to the logical conclusion it proves that the church has not been honest with its history or doctrine and that realization turns people away.
Sadly I think most members are active, not because of the promise of eternal salvatuon, but for community and commmunion. Those things can still happen in a broken church thst is open and honest, but not where smoke and mirrors are present.
Re: "These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:24 am
by Vlad the Emailer
didyoumythme wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:00 amTo believe in the face of so much contradicting evidence is to deny reality.
Indeed.
And to me, that is the bottom line.
And the "these things have all been debunked" thing is hilarious. Try getting a TBM that says that to give you an example and sit down and talk about it.
The only two TBM's left in my family, at least close family, are my wife and one sister. They both claim to know the issues, but they'll run at lightning speed away from any attempt to actually discuss them, at least most of the time. My wife won't even read the lds.org essays.
They're scared to death to read, listen, or study because they don't want to have to hold themselves accountable for the new information. When it comes to remaining TBM, ignorance truly is bliss*!
*The actual quote is "where it is folly to be wise, ignorance is bliss" which, IMHO, describes the Mormon church perfectly.
Re: "These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:09 pm
by LaMachina
I've certainly noticed the same trend.
Perhaps it as simple as people have different interests or goals in life. An example that comes to mind, we've cut the cable chord and consume our digital entertainment through streaming services like Netflix. This has changed our viewing habits as my wife now dislikes waiting for a series to continue week to week and prefers having a completed season, or even better, a completed series she can enjoy while on the treadmill. She will often get through a season and be looking for something else to watch. For years now I have been trying to convince her to watch Breaking Bad. It checks off all her requirements, it is a great show (IMO), the series has finished so there is no waiting for new episodes and it is easily accessible. Yet she will NOT watch it. She watched 15 minutes once when I turned it on but has not touched it since. It used to bother me but I came to realization that it just doesn't interest her. I can not dictate what someone likes or takes interest in and even when they say "I need a new show" or in your case "I want to help you" it doesn't mean in the way or method you prefer. You can say Breaking Bad all day but what they really want is the new season of Vampire Diaries.
Now, you can justifiably say -"that's a ridiculous parallel" and maybe you're right, however I think religious devotion (and I mean no offense by this) has a lot more in common with entertainment preferences or sports fandom than it does objectively true facts. And you know what? I'm mostly ok with that. If someone finds real emotional meaning out of their religious faith (and plenty of mormons do) than more power to them. This isn't the case if they're going to be in my face about their personal fandom or the fact that I'm not a fan but in my case our entire mormon community has almost completely avoided discussing the issue. Maybe they've realized it would be the same as me discussing all the amazing qualities of Breaking Bad with someone who just really finds the show super boring.
Re: "These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:21 pm
by Linked
didyoumythme wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:41 am
Why are members afraid to discuss the issues? This continues to be one of my biggest shelf items since my my ‘faith awakening’ began 6 months ago. At the beginning I would come to my father with questions, but it was difficult to have meaningful discussions as he was was unaware/skeptical of the facts I was learning.
He said things like, “these issues are old and have all been debunked” and “I know without a doubt ____ is true” etc. I tried to explain that I could consider faith if there wasn’t so much contradicting evidence that pointed the opposite way. I wanted to discuss these topics and be shown how this was all debunked. The problem was that he refused to read or watch anything I sent him, so we could never have a substantive discussion.
If my family cares so much about me, and my faith is the most important thing, then why would they refuse to engage with me on this all-important topic. I have waited 6 months for my father to watch a 15 minute video about the Book of Abraham so we could discuss it, but he hasn’t watched it. Something isn’t adding up here when they say, “We love you”, “We want to help”, then they refuse to provide the only help I need.
This is the biggest testament to me that its all fraud.
I think the root of the inability to have a rational discussion about the problems with church history is that these problems are tied to dogmatic beliefs. By definition a dogmatic belief does not require rational thinking to arrive at, it is true because it is true. So to take dogmatic beliefs and hold a skeptical light to them is anathema to a TBM. Seeing someone else do it is a sign that you don't share the same dogmatic beliefs. So when you bring up the Book of Abraham not being translated alarm bells go off in your Dad's head; he knows that he should not look into it because it challenges his belief in Joseph Smith as a prophet, and he knows that you don't share that belief.
In mormonism this is complicated by the lack of definition of our beliefs. The closest thing to a catechism the LDS church has is "I know this church is true. I know Joseph Smith restored the gospel and priesthood. I know the Book of Mormon is true. I know Thomas S. Monson is the prophet of God on the Earth today." The implications of these dogmatic beliefs is left to be pondered and discussed with your fellow members.
By looking at anything that brings a skeptical view on a dogmatic belief you are in essence declaring that you are no longer in the mainstream of mormon society, you become a fringe dweller. In the S1E16 of "Bones" there is a quote that seems applicable, "every society has its fringe dwellers and every society fears its fringe dwellers, usually because they are the example of what happens when you fail in that society, but they are seldom dangerous in reality." In this case they believe failing has eternal consequences, which is very serious for a TBM.
Re: "These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:35 pm
by Linked
LaMachina wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:09 pm
I've certainly noticed the same trend.
Perhaps it as simple as people have different interests or goals in life. An example that comes to mind, we've cut the cable chord and consume our digital entertainment through streaming services like Netflix. This has changed our viewing habits as my wife now dislikes waiting for a series to continue week to week and prefers having a completed season, or even better, a completed series she can enjoy while on the treadmill. She will often get through a season and be looking for something else to watch. For years now I have been trying to convince her to watch Breaking Bad. It checks off all her requirements, it is a great show (IMO), the series has finished so there is no waiting for new episodes and it is easily accessible. Yet she will NOT watch it. She watched 15 minutes once when I turned it on but has not touched it since. It used to bother me but I came to realization that it just doesn't interest her. I can not dictate what someone likes or takes interest in and even when they say "I need a new show" or in your case "I want to help you" it doesn't mean in the way or method you prefer. You can say Breaking Bad all day but what they really want is the new season of Vampire Diaries.
Now, you can justifiably say -"that's a ridiculous parallel" and maybe you're right, however I think religious devotion (and I mean no offense by this) has a lot more in common with entertainment preferences or sports fandom than it does objectively true facts. And you know what? I'm mostly ok with that. If someone finds real emotional meaning out of their religious faith (and plenty of mormons do) than more power to them. This isn't the case if they're going to be in my face about their personal fandom or the fact that I'm not a fan but in my case our entire mormon community has almost completely avoided discussing the issue. Maybe they've realized it would be the same as me discussing all the amazing qualities of Breaking Bad with someone who just really finds the show super boring.
That's interesting. My own experience with Breaking Bad may add another dimension to your parallel, though what you have written is still spot on in many/most cases. I have not watched Breaking Bad yet either, but in my case I AM interested in the show, I do want to watch it, but I am not ready to commit my time and energy and emotion to another series yet. I will probably get around to watching it eventually and I will probably love it and ask everyone if they've seen it and tell them they just have to watch it because it is awesome. But I'm not ready yet. And telling me to watch it only makes me less ready because I'm not ready to commit to it and it scares me off.
In the case of our TBM loved ones, some may have personalities that would really thrive outside the church, but emotionally they aren't ready to commit to it. They may never be ready. The church does a good job telling us what our emotions mean and which are good and bad which makes it really hard for a TBM to even consider life outside the confines of the church's worldview.
Re: "These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:39 pm
by Journey
Why won't they talk to you? I believe it's a matter of self preservation. They love you and wish you all the best but you are the one that that has gone off the "path" and as much as they love you, they need to preserve their own faith first.
Re: "These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:42 pm
by SIWL
This anecdote is sort of analogous and I think it's both funny and true about how people deal with information that doesn't fit comfortably in their world view:
Of course, not everyone likes the idea of spreading scientific understanding. Remember what the Bishop of Birmingham’s wife is reputed to have said about Darwin’s claim that human beings are descended from monkeys: "My dear, let us hope it is not true, but, if it is true, let us hope it will not become generally known."
Most people will believe what they want to believe and will reinforce those beliefs with cherry-picked information, scripture, etc. Some look at it rationally and go where the evidence leads ......those of us that do this and are Mormon sometimes end up on the NOM board.
Re: "These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:53 pm
by Silver Girl
Journey wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:39 pm
Why won't they talk to you? I believe it's a matter of self preservation. They love you and wish you all the best but you are the one that that has gone off the "path" and as much as they love you, they need to preserve their own faith first.
^ THIS ^
Most TBMs who know anything about the issues retreat into denial. They also feel the rest of us aren't praying hard enough, etc. to the The Truth.
Re: "These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:21 pm
by FiveFingerMnemonic
Humans make decisions based on emotions and not rational thought. The biggest motivating emotion used to control mankind is fear. Being LDS, the thought of not being the special chosen elite from the preexistence and being totally wrong on so many philosophical levels after so much devotion and sacrifice is too much fear to bear. Survival instinct kicks in (fight or flight) and preservation mode reigns.
Re: "These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:04 pm
by Vlad the Emailer
All excellent thoughts.
Something else this makes me think of is that the TBM commitment to ignorance is in fact institutionalized hypocrisy.
Why?
Because while Peter Priesthood and Molly Mormon cover their ears, close their eyes, and loudly sing LA LA LA LA LA anytime something comes up that could threaten their Mormon delusion, they fully agree that there should be an army of full-time volunteers out encouraging non-Mormons to do precisely what they will not do.
"No, I won't take a closer look at my religion," say Pete and Molly "but everyone else should. And if they won't it means they're closed minded and choosing to be blind to truth!"
Re: "These issues have all been debunked"
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:20 pm
by Emower
So much about this church requires you to turn your brain off. I have begun to tell my family that God gave me a brain and wants me to be rational about things. You have to be rational in life or you don't get anywhere. Why does it need to be different with God or the church? There are very few things anymore that I am willing to adhere to while not understanding it.