NOM

In my TBM days I remember often hearing the trite phrase "Agency is not free." followed up with statements about the blood of Christ and the Atonement. I don't want to belittle those things for those here who still believe in them, but it got me to thinking (I know, that's dangerous), about my new view of agency, in that it can now fall back into the category of "Free". I am currently agnostic, believing there is possibly greater power in the universe that kicked off the big bang, but is not an old bearded man who meddles in my daily affairs. The OT and NT unraveled for me quickly after all the Mormon dogma dissolved.

So, as a TBM, agency came at a price by the atonement. For many other folks on the planet it's just freewill. What sparked this post was hearing the the song by Rush this morning "Freewill", and I realized that I relate differently to the lyrics now that I'm no longer a TBM. This happens a lot with me with music lately. I'll dig up some tune I used to listen to as a TBM and it's a totally different song now that I'm not. Another one that I relate to know, but used to grind on my as a TBM is "Personal Jesus" by Depeche Mode.

There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance
A planet of play things
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
'The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are malign...'
Blame is better to give than receive

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill

There are those who think
That they were dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them
They weren't born in Lotusland

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet

I'll also post this in the NOM Playlist, but I liked how thought it was for me this morning as I was driving around in the snow.

So what do you think? Is it Free Will or Agency purchased by the Atonement of Christ? Have your views of agency changed since you've become NOM or NOMish? Are there songs in your library that have changed for you as you made the journey out of Mormonism?

TBM hat on:

I always thought free agency was part of why we fought the war in heaven. I do remember some religion professors saying that once we make covenants we no longer have free agency, we are bound to the covenants we make. (But that didn't even make sense to TBM me.) I guess the Atonement was part of the original plan that led to our agency, but I don't remember being taught that the Atonement bought our agency. It would make up for the bad things we did with our agency through repentance, but we would have it even if we completely ignored the atonement.

TBM hat off:

I guess I never really believed that agency wasn't free in the first place. I still think it is free.

I enjoy music a lot more in general since I became a NOM. Actually, I enjoy everything more. Being TBM really screwed with my self-esteem/self-worth. And that made enjoying life harder than it needed to be.

After reading a bunch of Scott Adams (dilbert author) stuff, I'm starting to believe we have no true agency and that we are just "moist robots" who only make choices as part of an evolved set of emotional reactions based on survival instincts.

MoPag wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:30 pm TBM hat on:

I always thought free agency was part of why we fought the war in heaven. I do remember some religion professors saying that once we make covenants we no longer have free agency, we are bound to the covenants we make. (But that didn't even make sense to TBM me.) I guess the Atonement was part of the original plan that led to our agency, but I don't remember being taught that the Atonement bought our agency. It would make up for the bad things we did with our agency through repentance, but we would have it even if we completely ignored the atonement.

I think a lot of people, including many TBM's, don't really want (free) agency. They prefer being told what to do. I also think they like to make covenants, because then they don't have to decide what is right/wrong anymore.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:34 pm After reading a bunch of Scott Adams (dilbert author) stuff, I'm starting to believe we have no true agency and that we are just "moist robots" who only make choices as part of an evolved set of emotional reactions based on survival instincts.

And I would say Scott Adams isn't necessarily wrong, but his definition of "free will" is, IMO, incomplete. Philosophically, on the subject of free will I would call myself a "compatibilist," in that I do believe in a deterministic universe, but in any way that practically matters we still have "free will." But what most people mean when they say "free will" doesn't hold up philosophically. See works by Daniel Dennett and Compatibilism.

fh451

fh451 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:00 pm ...I do believe in a deterministic universe, but in any way that practically matters we still have "free will."

So, where one of the deterministic systems is Behaviorism, which is typically against free will, your approach is to see choice as a practical part of our perceived individual existence vs. some greater definition that implies it's part of a grand design?

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

I think I agree with the philosopher Sartre who said that most people are terrified by free will and do anything they can to fool themselves into thinking they can just turn the choices over to someone else. Saying that free agency isn't free or that once we make the covenant we are bound to keep it or all the follow the prophet and even if he is wrong you will be blessed are all just ways people try to get out of responsibility for the choices they make. But they are still responsible for making the wrong choice to follow the prophet if the think the prophet is wrong. Sartre said that no matter what we do, we cannot get out of the responsibility for our choices.

See, Mormons are confused because they teach that you can't get out of the consequences of your choices, but at the same time say that if you are following the prophet you will be blessed. No, because if you follow the prophet and he is wrong, you are still stuck with the consequences of that mistake. God don't give no, "I was only following orders" excuses.

But on the other hand, I am kind of a determinist also. Free will or agency is always limited by our circumstances. People with mental health issues can be very limited in the choices before them. Is a narcissist really capable of empathy, or of making a choice that is in the other person's best interest? What happens to us determines what we become and that limits the choices available. Even in the best of circumstances we cannot see choices our experience has not taught us to look for. Victor Frankl said that even in the concentration camps, people were free to chose how to react. But what he didn't take into account was that each individual brought their own internal concentration camp with them when the came in, the personal concentration camp of their knowledge, experience, mental health, personality.

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:33 pm So, where one of the deterministic systems is Behaviorism, which is typically against free will, your approach is to see choice as a practical part of our perceived individual existence vs. some greater definition that implies it's part of a grand design?

You might also want to check out Steven Landsburg's discussion on free will here: Free to Choose. He can be a little dismissive in his arguments, but he's an economist and his arguments are generally more direct than a philosopher's. Apparently he disagrees with professional philosophers, like Dennett, on the finer points of argument, but comes to pretty much the same conclusions as a compatibilist.

fh451

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As a duly registered Utah corporation, Freewill Agency would eventually need to file for bankruptcy.