NOM

Do any of you folks believe that there is an individual named lucifer who works to bring us into misery? That kind of Satan has never made much sense to me.

In Mormon thought, there has to be opposition in all things. So there needs to be a source of evil and temptation and this is Satan. But that seems Calvinistic to me. If it has to be that way and there has to be a Satan, is lucifer just the poor shmuck who got stuck with the cosmic short stick? The temple ceremony indicates that he is just doing what has always been done.
I know he has his agency and yada yada, but really, if he didn't do what he did the POS doesn't work and we don't get our precious mortal experience. The whole pre mortal life sounds very Calvinistic to me.

If Satan wanted to really screw up the plan of salvation, all he would need to do is literally nothing. Don't provide opposition. That would screw everything up. The dichotomy of Good vs Evil in the LDS dogma really is silly and is a juvenile thought process when you sit down and think it through.

Hail Satan!

P.S. - I'm a big fan of the church of Satan. They don't actually worship some devil of the underworld we call Satan. They promote science, logic and equality. Those are much bigger threats to the Church than any Lord of Darkness.

I used to believe in him as a TBM, but no longer. I believe he is just made up to explain why bad things happen.

No. Most cultures have a bad-guy in their pantheon of gods. Someone to scare people into doing what they want them to do. A ruler over the hellfire and damnation that awaits those who don't conform.

Satan and evil beings/gods in general were definitely invented long ago to:

• place blame on bad things that happen in life

• control masses via fear - do what we say or Satan will have his way

Once I got rid of the angel and devil on my shoulder I noticed that life still happens the same way it always did, only my mind was much more at ease about it.

Sometimes it is fun to consider a pantheon of angels, such as:

Michael - the archangel
Gabriel - the one with the horn
Metronome - the one who keeps the beat
Libido - the one with the drawn sword

No, I don't believe in a literal Satan. When I was a believer, I did.

When I resigned my baptism was declared void. I enjoyed participating in the Eucharistic service, but a baptism is required for communion in the Episcopal church. I struggled in my decision to be baptized because of one particular portion of the baptismal covenant: "Do you renounce Satan and all the spiritual forces of wickedness that rebel against God?"

I struggled because I didn't believe in Satan. I spoke to my priest about this and she revealed that I was not the only person who struggled with the concept of Satan. That was the first time I heard the phrase, "You don't have to take the bible literally to take it seriously". We talked about the symbolism of Satan and the spiritual forces of wickedness: the base instincts that we all need to overcome in our lives for the betterment of the human condition. We spoke of racism, prejudice, violence, adultery, and greed.

When I looked at Satan and the spiritual forces of wickedness that way, I was able to take the baptismal covenant seriously, but not literally. I do reject Satan and all the spiritual forces of wickedness that rebel against God.

What is interesting about that approach, is that overtime we speak less and less of Satan. I don't think of Satan anymore and much of that is the approach to religion of myself and those around me of one of positive over negative. I have seen a focus in my life of what I should be doing (giving to the poor, serving those around me, and loving my neighbor) and a shift away from those things I should not be doing. This has created a far more positive outlook on life.

What I have noticed in my own life and in those around me is that those who worry constantly about sin and the devil tend to have a higher level of sin in their life. One of the reasons I ultimately rejected Mormonism was because of its consistent speaking about the negative. Mormonism has a large list of things that you should do, but an even larger list of things that shouldn't do. Don't watch R-rated movies, don't drink coffee, don't drink tea, don't wear tank tops, etc. When we think about the things we shouldn't do all the time, they become more enticing to us. I've found that focusing upon the positive aspects makes the negative traits naturally become less and less through time. "Satan" (the negative) has far less control over me in comparison to "God" (the positive) because I focus upon what I should be doing rather than what I should not be doing.

In that way, I do also reject Satan and all the spiritual forces of wickedness, because I stopped caring about that. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. I feel indifferent towards Satan.

document wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:55 amI struggled because I didn't believe in Satan. I spoke to my priest about this and she revealed that I was not the only person who struggled with the concept of Satan. That was the first time I heard the phrase, "You don't have to take the bible literally to take it seriously".

This is a level of wisdom that absolutely eludes the vast majority of the LDS church and especially the correlation department. I would gladly extend this idea to the idea of Satan: "You don't have to take Satan literally to take moral evil seriously."

When any concept is literal, it absolutely affects its importance and how seriously it needs to be taken. Here is a brief and incomplete list of things that that Mormons pretty much have to treat as literal in the LDS church:

• Book of Mormon
• Bible
• Doctrine and Covenants
• Pearl of Great Price
• Adam & Eve, Garden of Eden
• The five covenants in the temple
• LDS = "the one true church"
• prophet talks to God in a better way that nobody else can
• Word of Wisdom
• tithing is essential for salvation
• Satan, of course

We could extend this list. Satan is just one of many things that are treated as very literal. It lead to me spending far too much time worrying about the character of God and Satan as expounded by the LDS church. It did not leave any time for me to develop my own moral reasoning.

I don't believe in a Satan, but if there is one his name is not Lucifer (I believe the once incident Lucifer is used in the OT is referring to someone else). I believe there can be evil, but Satan is mostly a scapegoat IMO, but we Mormons love him! He gets blamed for everything but does very little. Haven't any TBMs heard of the "natural man"? Of course, it's much more comforting to oneself to blame Satan than to have to admit that you did something evil/bad or sinned of your own volition. And frankly I think some evil supernatural being being able to control and influence my mind while the "good" supernatural being can't do the same is kind of scary.

FWIW, I love the TV show (Lucifer).

I used to accept that, but not anymore. It never made much sense to me as a TBM, but nothing did if I thought about it too much. I was taught in seminary that there must be "7+ demons around every Mormon at all times" because 1/3 cast down from heaven yada yada. Life is so much better without constantly worrying that demons are whispering in my ear and that the dark shadow I see in my hallway at night is a demon spirit.

Stories about satan do fascinate me, but I'm not sure what to make of them. I know people who essentially have a testimony of the church because of experiences they have had with the devil. We have all heard the stories - shadows surrounding you at night, flying objects, moving figures in the hallway, possessions etc.

I'd be interested to hear what you all think about modern stories of Satan, particularly from people close to you.

At some point in my later teenage years/young adulthood I threw away the concept of a meddlesome god. Since I didn’t think god meddled with humanity I saw no reason why Satan would. At this point, I see both god and Satan as mythological symbols for good and evil.

As a child I used to feel sorry for Satan and wanted to pray for him so he could come back and be good. I was told that would never happen and that having sympathetic feelings for Satan was very, very bad. I used to struggle with that a lot – that I felt so bad for wanting Satan, my big heavenly brother, to come back to the fold.

Something that has long struck me about Satan is his place within the LDS story-structure/theological framework. He is the conflict, and without him, there’s nothing. The temple is damned boring. Satan is the most interesting part. His is the only part with any emotion. Were I to play any part in a genesis-like play, I’d want to be Satan. Tell that to any TBM and they get their garmies in a knot, but it’s true. Dante’s Divine Comedy is an excellent example. The Inferno is the only part anyone reads or alludes to. No one wants to read about Paradise. Without conflict, without evil, there is no story. This is why LDS-themed literature is so bad.

Modern stories of Satan? I’m not sure I know any, but when grown adults at church talk about Satan meddling with their lives I think it is very silly. It’s like my kid telling me Grover told them to paint on the walls. Sure. Whatever.

The existence of Satan is not necessary to explain evil. The way he is used by LDS believers only stirs up fear, creates a victim mentality, and prevents people from taking full responsibility for their morality, choices, and actions. In short--not only do I not believe he exists, but I also feel that Satan-related boogey-man rhetoric is manipulative and does not lead to human flourishing.

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:17 pm Modern stories of Satan? I’m not sure I know any, but when grown adults at church talk about Satan meddling with their lives I think it is very silly. It’s like my kid telling me Grover told them to paint on the walls. Sure. Whatever.

Once we realize that his existence is just a way for a person to blame someone else for their poor choices in life, the magic is lost.

No Satan (especially not "Lucifer") and no God either.

didyoumythme wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:04 pm I'd be interested to hear what you all think about modern stories of Satan, particularly from people close to you.

Some couple missionaries from pleasant grove ut shared a story with me. One of their sons was a little bit of a rebel and was involved with *gasp* heavy metal. He had a poster of Metallica? (I don't remember now but it was a well known group). Apparently there was a person on the poster and she felt like its eyes would follow her when she walked by. It was a point of contention in the house. The boy had a come to Joseph I mean Jesus moment and they decided to get rid of all his music and burn the poster. She said when they threw it on the fire it literally screamed at her. I was 13 when she told me all this and it scared the crap out of me.

My priest caught me in the sanctuary today just as I finished up my rehearsal session. We chatted for a while and I brought up this thread and the fact that "Satan" has been on my mind. We spoke about the Mormon concept of Satan. I described to her what I considered the pinnacle of Mormon obsession with Satan: where Satan would break the fourth wall in the LDS temple ceremony and say (something like) "if you do not live up to the covenants you make at this altar in this temple in this day, you will be in my power". Her response was, "Good Lord! That just sounds eery".

I was completely honest, it scared the poop out of me as a believer and I took that moment VERY seriously. But my long drive out to get my kids and the long the drive home (with my daughter asleep in the car) gave me more time to think over Satan. What power he has in Mormonism, and that the only person to directly address the audience in the temple drama is Satan himself. Amazing.

My reflections today just reminded me of how glad I am to be away from Mormon theology as a believer. The temple, in many ways, reminds me of the hell house that the local baptists put together called "Judgement Day". While their attraction is far more gory, Satan himself is your tour guide and whispers and temps you throughout. It's a bizarre obsession, and Mormons are not the only ones. But man alive, I'm glad to be away from these religions that obsess over Satan.

LSOF wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:42 pm No Satan (especially not "Lucifer") and no God either.

This.

Actually, I think the temple Satan and his famous line "if these people do not keep the covenants made in this temple this day (yeah, I'm paraphrasing, it's been many years since I was there), they will be under my power!" is just another item for the shelf. All the children have to be directly commanded to do as they're told (pay tithing, clean church, pay tithing.....) or the bad guy in the cartoon is going to get them!! It's all so transparent now. I wish I hadn't been wearing blinders back then.

Satan makes sense if you think of the personification of good and evil in a Ying/Yang form. On the other hand, you could personify a God of caring and a counterpart of incidental happenstance. Satan makes the most sense when it is something to be wielded as a human control mechanism, which ironically can be used by wily humans as proof that doubt in such a being is due to the deceptiveness of that being.

document wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:16 pm What power he has in Mormonism, and that the only person to directly address the audience in the temple drama is Satan himself. Amazing.

Adam addresses the audience in the drama too when he tells the audience that Peter, James and John are "True Messengers".

(Just sayin'...)

This youtube video was brought up on the old NOM site. I found it very informative:

The Evolution of Satan in the Bible
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-gbOnWj6Mw