Urim and Thummum? Shame on us!

[Hagoth]

Our Gospel Doctrine teacher ended his lesson talking about the BoM translation method. He actually mentioned the stone-in-hat as "one of the methods" Joseph used but he followed it up with an apologetic argument about how "translate" doesn't really meant "translate." Then came the victim blaming. He said it's the members' fault for ever having dreamed up the notion that Joseph actually looked at the plates through a pair of magic spectacles. The real information was always out there but we chose to invent another story, despite what the records actually say. "Shame on us."

[MoPag]

he followed it up with an apologetic argument about how "translate" doesn't really meant "translate."

Oh I love it when they do the "words don't mean words" spin. "Ordain didn't mean ordain" "women didn't mean women" Like what the actual f***? You have problems if your religion can only exist in some deconstructed parallel universe where words don't mean words.

[wtfluff]

They NEVER taught that Joe looked at the plates. They especially wouldn't publish it on their own magazine!

translating_the_plates_ensign.jpg (38.45 KiB) Viewed 15605 times

The Church of GASLIGTHING of the Latter-day Saints.

[Hagoth]

A light bulb went on in my head during this lesson regarding Reformed Egyptian. I always wondered why not just Egyptian? Then it occurred to me that Joseph probably invented the notion of Reformed Egyptian when Martin Harris was adamant about finding a legitimate scholar to translate the characters. "Oh man, how do I get around this one? I know, I'll just say the Nephites changed the writing so it doesn't resemble anything from the real world, that way only I, the appointed one, can read them," (pats himself on the back).

[Hagoth]

They NEVER taught that Joe looked at the plates. They especially wouldn't publish it on their own magazine!
The church of GASLIGTHING of the Latter-day Saints.

Where have you been, fluff? Don't you know that's all the wild imaginings of renegade artists that the leadership was unable to wrangle into telling the truth?

[AllieOop]

Then came the victim blaming. He said it's the members' fault for ever having dreamed up the notion that Joseph actually looked at the plates through a pair of magic spectacles. The real information was always out there but we chose to invent another story, despite what the records actually say. "Shame on us."

Um...ok



https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/10/jose ... r?lang=eng



*************************

[deacon blues]

The phrase "one of the methods" bugs me. Other than Joseph, Oliver, and maybe Lucy, whoever said that the Interpreters were anything besides a rock in a hat, or that they were used in translating. I can't think of any solid evidence that Joseph used anything other than the rock in the hat.

[AllieOop]

The phrase "one of the methods" bugs me. Other than Joseph, Oliver, and maybe Lucy, whoever said that the Interpreters were anything besides a rock in a hat, or that they were used in translating. I can't think of any solid evidence that Joseph used anything other than the rock in the hat.

True. They were only used for the lost 116 pages (the interpreters). Also no one even called them a Urim & Thummim until after 1833 and it came from speculation by W.W. Phelps (not from Joseph):

It is notable that the term 'Urim and Thummi' is not found in the Book of Mormon and was never used by Joseph Smith with reference to producing the Book of Mormon until after 1833. In that year, a close associate of Smith, W.W. Phelps, speculated that the ancient Nephite interpreters mentioned in the Book of Mormon and by Joseph Smith might be the Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament. Phelps wrote in the LDS publication The Evening and Morning Star (Jan. 1833) that the Book of Mormon had been translated, 'through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles (known perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim). Phelps words, 'known perhaps in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummin' show that it was merely speculation on his part that associated Josephs magic seer stone with the biblical Urim and Thummim.

Phelps' speculation gained quick popularity to the point where LDS writers used the term Urim and Thummim to refer to both the mystical interpreters Joseph Smith said were with the gold plates, and to the seer stone Joseph placed in his hat while dictating the Book of Mormon. As a result, many LDS writings used the term Urim and Thummim synonymously for seer stone.

*******************

[The Beast]

What happened in your SS class is a perfect example of why I no longer attend. I'm an introvert and perfectly happy most of the time at church or in other large gatherings to keep my mouth shut, but if I had been in your class, I would've let that teacher know a thing or two. What crap! "You all should've know." Malarkey! The lengths members will go to keep the church perfect fries my brain.

[Korihor]

Warning - Threadjack alert.

We didn't go to church yesterday. Mrs Kori opted to stay home. I didn't get worked up about this lesson because I wasn't there.

[Silver Girl]

The Church of Alternative Facts

I want the T-shirt.

[RubinHighlander]

Ah yes, the blame game is so very lame.

I just recently read BKP's "The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than The Intellect" talk to all the CES educators.

https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/ ... ct_eng.pdf

I think your SS teacher should read that talk and discuss how it is that 3+hrs per week, two years on a full-time mish, numerous hours of instruction in seminaries in HS and college, firesides, conference talks...any mention of a seer stone found in a well used for translating by looking in a hat? Nope.

Seems the CES teachers stuck to the inspired superior mantle of Packer over their own intellects, as did most church historians.

[wtfluff]

They NEVER taught that Joe looked at the plates. They especially wouldn't publish it on their own magazine!
The church of GASLIGTHING of the Latter-day Saints.

Where have you been, fluff? Don't you know that's all the wild imaginings of renegade artists that the leadership was unable to wrangle into telling the truth?

Ah yes. Those "renegades" hijacked the publishing of every image ever published in a LDS publication, and on the LDS website. They also hijacked every movie/video produced by the motion picture studios owned by the LDS Corporation.

Again, gaslighting at it's finest.

The Church of Alternative Facts

I want the T-shirt.

The LDS Corporation prefers the term: "Carefully Worded Denial".

I'm sure they would have loved to trademark "Alternative Facts" before someone else used it though...

[Corsair]

I'm waiting for the institutional LDS church to produce official pictures and films showing "face in the hat". I am thoroughly looking forward to hearing from teachers trying to make this look somehow "normal" and not crazy. This will probably be classified as "sacred, not secret" like the temple outfit which looks crazy to everyone when worn outside the temple.

The church must be hoping that this gets normalized in some way. But that means at some time in the future some Primary is going to have an object lesson with a top hat where children look in the hat and learn gospel principles from that activity. I don't know how this will ever look normal to the outside world unless some truly inspired prophet actually translates or prophecies accurately and verifiably with his face in a hat. Do you want it to be normal and faith promoting? Make "face in the hat" work in the real world.

[Red Ryder]

Isn't it an amazing time to be alive and stuck in the middle of this quagmire?

The church continues to change the narrative in real time while we sit in Sunday school watching it happened.

I've heard so many people claim they already knew this stuff, yet when pressed for answers or explanations they are dead silent and just stare at you.

Total twilight zone.

[AllieOop]

Isn't it an amazing time to be alive and stuck in the middle of this quagmire?

The church continues to change the narrative in real time while we sit in Sunday school watching it happened.

I've heard so many people claim they already knew this stuff, yet when pressed for answers or explanations they are dead silent and just stare at you.

Total twilight zone.

I completely agree. If you read over on MD&D, this is always the apologetic tactic: "What? You didn't know about that? Well, that's YOUR fault I've always known about this and the church has never hidden it!"

I want to ask them to try something as a test for this. Bring up the word "polyandry" in their next gospel doctrine class and let's see how many members know what it means and how it relates to early church history. Or, how about they ask who Fanny Alger is? Let's see how many hands go up.


*****************

[document]

After I saw the South Park episode, I asked my institute teacher about it. I was told that South Park was making stuff up.

So, shame on me for believing my institute teacher over South Park?

EDIT: Wrote bishop, it was actually my institute teacher. CES paid, baby!

[MoPag]

The Church of Alternative Facts

I want the T-shirt.

I want one too!!!

[Not Buying It]

It is far easier for a believer to blame the victims than it is for them to admit the Church misled us. What you are seeing is cognitive dissonance in action, which they have opted to resolve by blaming the victim. It's the only thing they can do really without admitting that the Church was dishonest, which is too much dissonance for many of them to handle.

[Enoch Witty]

The Church of Alternative Facts

I want the T-shirt.

Too bad Kelly Anne Conway isn't available as a church spokesperson; she'd fit right in.