NOM

My observation is that organizations can be good for some things but they have their drawbacks. So, here are my questions.
Are some religions too organized?
What would an ideally organized religion be like?

I've been studying the early Church Fathers lately. Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus among others. If you look at Paul's writings you see that almost immediately, the "church" was in trouble regarding both organization and moral and cultural issues. The early Church Fathers tried to keep things on track but were burdened with their own understandings (or lack thereof) as to how the church should function and the challenge of converts who all had their own ideas about the Christian religion. Paul was concerned for the welfare of widows but there had to be a commonsense approach to taking care of them. It seems to me that the problem of "organizing" boils down to two issues. Authoritative leadership that correctly understands doctrine, (out of which culture flows) and worker bees who understand the teachings and then follow as best as they can. Unfortunately, no extant church today has ANY authority. Confusion ensues.


Since we are literally living out the parable of the Wheat and the Tares, where the true field has been oversewn with false doctrine and no authority exists, we are left to ourselves (with the influence of the Spirit promised by Christ) to fathom out the best place to put our time and energy. Some people may do that without being involved in organized Christianity at all. Others may find an institution that is comfortable to them and put their efforts there. In the current circumstances I think either position is acceptable to God as long as we keep His main two commandments which are to love Him with all our hearts and minds and our neighbors as ourselves.

Since we are all Christians we are organized as follows:
We worship God, believe in Christ, and invite the Holy Ghost.
Leviticus 23: There is a sabbath on the seventh day, which is sabado/saturday, a holy convocation as we do so together on the same day.
There are three festivals following the moon and rome has instituted sunday rest along with other holidays, including easter and christmas.
Sabbath rests go from evening on the day prior to evening on the sabbath day. Chinese New Year begins the month when Passover occurs.
Exodus 23 has the record of law prior, which still counts in many cases:

Tell the truth.
Help the innocent by being a compliant and honest witness. Whether alone or in a group, maintain thy story and perspective the whole time.
Only do to others as you would have them do to you if they would do you no wrong.
Keep your word true even when other people tell their side first, upset your emotions, or need to win because they are poor.
If you find a lost car or tool, return it.
If someone breaks down, help them even if you hate them.
Allow the poor, ignorant, and needy to file lawsuits.
File charges that are correct or drop the case to avoid bribery by plea agreement.
Put guilty people to death but keep the honest in prison until they are corrected.
Be truthful whether you are compensated or volunteering, or are asked to lie for money.
Bend rules for foreigners like Joseph did for his brothers. (feed, house, translate, and repay)
Every seventh year let poor people use your land; they have responsibility for their harvest, to take or leave them for wild animals.
The Sabbath is for everyone, including animals, so you are rested and refreshed for work.
Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread for seven days and go hang out with your leaders: Make sure you're edge-fasting!
Celebrate the Festival of Harvest and go hang out with your leaders: Bring new and unique crops to your leaders, for Scientific and Medical purposes.
Celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles/Ingathering/Shelters at the end of the year, gather crops and prepare beds, go hang out with your leaders and arrange winter tenancies.
Go hang out with your leaders! Go hang out with your leaders! Go hang out with your leaders!
Bacteria are attracted to bread and blood; avoid kitchen cross-contamination.
Animal fats must be consumed quickly because disease and contaminants spread on leftovers: Put them away before you go to bed or throw them out!
Bring your firstfruits together for research and development.
No cheeseburgers.

There is a Lord of Lords, Jesus Christ, above him there are none, which means there are Lords among us. If you don't like the idea of that, repent.
There are other times LORD and Lord are mentioned throughout the Bible: Whether you believe these are all Jesus or not is superficial to your personal development. There are Priesthood leaders and keys, conferred by laying hands on the top of the head, which empowers ordinances such as baptism and marriage, and refines personal power; however much more beyond this is above my knowledge because I am an Elder.

We worship God, believe in Christ, and invite the Holy Ghost.

I do miss the oneness I felt with my fellow mormons as a believer. I don't think you get that closeness without a significant amount of organization. And part of that organization requires demanding support from those within the organization so that they feel part of it.

I get something similar from a morning basketball group I attend. Regularly scheduled pick up games with a devoted group that show up consistently. Maybe the key is meeting regularity, commitment of the members to attend, and a common interest/goal/belief to build upon.

Bonfire wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:38 am Since we are all Christians we are organized as follows:
We worship God...
...We worship the same God. We believe in Christ. We invite the Holy Ghost.

Who is this "We" you mention Bonfire?

Linked wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:46 pm I do miss the oneness I felt with my fellow mormons as a believer. I don't think you get that closeness without a significant amount of organization. And part of that organization requires demanding support from those within the organization so that they feel part of it.

I get something similar from a morning basketball group I attend. Regularly scheduled pick up games with a devoted group that show up consistently. Maybe the key is meeting regularity, commitment of the members to attend, and a common interest/goal/belief to build upon.

Who is this "We" you mention Bonfire?

I was mentioning Christians there.

A church-owned press prints manuals that were developed to keep responsibilities up-to-date and distributed.
Leaders meet routinely to discuss and finalize lesson plans before each new year.

Organizations must plan ahead in order to make and keep commitments to one another and to other organizations. Tithing is paid to make this possible, which is one-tenth of each year's increase (whether wages or profits), by those maintaining their temple recommends; while Fast-Offerings are given by those who participate in skipping two-to-three meals each month to help the poor.

Imagine if Fast-Offerings alone could sustain the whole church!

Given there are 31,400+ churches, 335+ temples that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints maintains, and ~9 million active members: If every active member (adult or child) were to pay $1 per month in fast offerings all church expenses would be covered; If every active member were to pay $10 per month in fast offerings for at least ten years, that's enough to cover churches, temple buildings, and expenses. There are about 35,000 church employees; if each one only makes $100,000 per year, every active member must pay $40 per month in fast offerings to cover their salaries and expenses. Another $125 would cover missionaries (75,000 average missionaries * $15,000 yearly costs). Institutes, seminaries, bishop storehouses, canneries, family search libraries, and any other rented or owned properties to manage furniture and equipment storage would also cost a fraction of building expenses, let's expect a tenth, which adds another $50 per month; stipends and travel expenses for leadership, missionaries, presidents, families, stake leadership, and any pertinent communication equipment would (hopefully) be another $125 per month, temple expenses and unforeseen ordinance and mission related expenses might add another $200, which means active members at $500 per month could theoretically pay for the whole church. This has long-term ramifications to sustainability of prophecies, history, and doctrine.

If all active members were to pay $500 per month then there would be no need for tithing. EXCEPT ->

I haven't included any expenses for the poor nor public: Rent support, child support, youth activity expenses, damages, historic sites, real estate ownership (plus all the employees necessary to go to every meeting), fleets of cars worldwide, investment and business management for books, transport, college (including BYU), and welfare.

One key that has seemingly changed while I've been alive is that leaders used to know not to gossip about youth nor other members, which includes not setting up arrangements to meet nor date, nor imagining the impact a church event might have romantically, personally, nor financially (except in travel).

Having faith in common is unifying as long as we are respectful.

Now think about rather than paying tithing, if members were able to give back something every month to the church, as a harvest for our sowing knowledge and spirit in one another for eternity, how could this be done? We would need to work together so everyone is employed and can contribute. This can be done by opting to have the church manage your housing, providing a means to share the costs of shelter in exchange for easier placement, as well as networking members that are business and home owners, which is done similarly for missionaries. If you were to bring a digital key to church, such as Feathercoin, to get started in this program, I'm certain there's a job for you. With the digital revolution there are very few permanent records being left behind which do not become corrupted nor sunset. We need to send some plates through time: Could this reach Mars?

Perhaps an organized religion could be watered down to git and version control, but does that scale worldwide? Across languages?? Are there safeguards for when the computer is broken or the power is out???

In b4 enncrypted: Do you guys take snap shots or do back ups? I dunno if Thayne ever did that before.
I'm sure you guys have got this. Way to stay organized. Ok. Woo!

Imagine how Mormonism would be if it dropped the worthiness crap and $Billions spent on necromancy and instead focused on making the lives of all humans better…

2bizE wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:36 pm Imagine how Mormonism would be if it dropped the worthiness crap and $Billions spent on necromancy and instead focused on making the lives of all humans better…

Ahhh.....but then it wouldn't be Mormonism. It would be Christian or some other altruistic group.