NOM

The new Topics and Questions section of the church's website, which replaced Gospel Topics, has a topic called Church Finances—Commercial Business.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

They actually say the church's commercial income is just scraps and leftovers from pioneer era businesses like beet farms and the Hotel Utah, and that

the money made from these commercial enterprises is relatively small; the majority of financial resources in the Church comes from the tithes and offerings of Church members.

It concludes:

The Church has maintained certain real estate holdings, particularly those contiguous to Temple Square, to help preserve the beauty and the integrity of the core of the city. All of these commercial properties are tax-paying entities.

“… The combined income from all of these business interests is relatively small and would not keep the work going for longer than a very brief period.”

Can you believe this BS? Unconscionable. Faithful members will go here first when confronted with claims of the church's wealth and greed, and just assume anyone who tries to tell them otherwise, like you, me, the Tribune, Time magazine... are lying for Satan.

I keep thinking I must be misreading or hallucinating or something. This is just such a blatant lie that it would be impossible to invent some kind of apologetic gymnastics to it warp it into some kind of half-truth. I mean, is there even a church member alive who is so sheltered from reality that they would believe this is an honest answer?

Holy cow. Holy. Freakin'. Cow.

I'm trying to get into my former TBM justification mode on these statements, but they are making it hard! It seems like this kind of write up by the church is short-sighted. It may win some battles, but it is so obviously dishonest that it's going to lose them the war.

"The majority of financial resources in the Church comes from tithes and offerings of Church members" - That one actually rings true, though it requires the church to talk out of both sides of it's mouth; a comfortable place for the church. All that money invested in Ensign Peak and real estate did originate as tithing and offerings. This is in stark contrast to when they want to use that money for shopping malls and bailing out companies at which point the church is adamant that it is not using tithing funds. So, if you just emphasize the right part at the right time, the logic works.

"The Church has maintained certain real estate holdings, particularly those contiguous to Temple Square, to help preserve the beauty and the integrity of the core of the city. All of these commercial properties are tax-paying entities." - That "particularly" makes it sound like the properties in downtown SLC are the majority of the real estate holdings, but that is just not true. So it must just be that City Creek is what they want to highlight, maybe because those are the most obvious and public. Are the commercial properties they refer to just City Creek? I honestly don't know if they are paying taxes for their real estate empire in Florida.

“… The combined income from all of these business interests is relatively small and would not keep the work going for longer than a very brief period.” - Another true but dishonest statement. They aren't bringing in a ton of income from their commercial businesses. They are bringing in a ton of capital gains from their investments. And the amount of wealth held could run the church for decades. So, by pointing at the smallest piece of the pie, business income, and ignoring the rest, it seems like they aren't hoarding money like Smaug.


ETA - I just saw on another site that these are quotes from GBH 1985! Completely unrelated to today's church finances. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

-- Gospel Principles --
- Chapter 31: Honesty
- Section Heading: To Lie Is Dishonest
First Paragraph

Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when He was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.

LD$-Inc.'s version of honesty/transparency is so laughable that... Well, I don't know what else to say.

I don't understand how they think proliferating such dishonesty and lies in a "new way" (Topics and Questions) is good for their organization?


And let's be clear: I'm laughing so that I don't cry. The majority of my life, and my life's decisions were based on this pile of Jaw-dropping Dishonesty. The majority of my family of origin believes these lies, and would likely claim that they would "lay down their lives" defending these lies.

And on that happy note, I bid you adieu.

Linked wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2024 11:27 am “… The combined income from all of these business interests is relatively small...

Relative to what? Assuming you don't play their game, but include their investments along with the pioneer era businesses, they exceed all other churches, so I guess we have to look at it relative to national treasuries?

Linked wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2024 11:27 am ETA - I just saw on another site that these are quotes from GBH 1985! Completely unrelated to today's church finances. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Even so, Hinkley was lying back then! They are double-lying when they use his lesser lie to cover up their greater lies. These RighteousMenOfGod are so devoid of common sense morals they appear to have lost the ability to even understand what honesty means anymore. Or they just got tired of even trying.

It's like saying, "I'm being relatively honest." Again- the question: Relative to what? Jim Bakker? Ken Copeland? The obvious religious scammers who are on TV?
Choosing to say "The combined income from all these business interests is relatively small" is intentionally choosing language that is vague, hard to disprove, and essentially meaningless.

Members probably rationalize that when the Church tells them bald-faced lies, there must be a good reason. Perhaps God wants them to be told lies. I am sure that Mormon apologists will come up with a similar explanation.

Perhaps Elder Bednar will suggest that the lies prove that it is all true.

What a load of crap. It’s written like they’re trying to explain commercial business ownership to a kid in the sunbeam class.

Ok Timmy, it’s like this…. Remember those pioneer people that walked across the plains? They started a bread baking business when they got to Salt Lake City, and because they paid tithing, their socio-economic condition was increased and today that same business now sells real estate, cow farms, and invests in the stock market.

Timmy: what’s the stock market?

Church: it’s where we put our $500 Billion dollars!!

Timmy: like a piggy bank?

Church: exactly!!!

Timmy: what’s wheel estate?

Church: it’s where we put our nickels and dimes!
Here’s a picture you can color Timmy!

Timmy: what’s a record breaking transaction??

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 8:16 am What a load of crap. It’s written like they’re trying to explain commercial business ownership to a kid in the sunbeam class.

Which makes perfect sense. The church teaches that we should be like little children and its methods excel in thought stopping methods.

Here's a faithful way to look at this. Consider the miracle of the loaves and fishes. How glorious that God's chosen servants, via Priesthood Power™, turned a pile of beets into a pile of million dollar condos.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2024 2:04 pm

Linked wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2024 11:27 am “… The combined income from all of these business interests is relatively small...

Relative to what? Assuming you don't play their game, but include their investments along with the pioneer era businesses, they exceed all other churches, so I guess we have to look at it relative to national treasuries?

Linked wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2024 11:27 am ETA - I just saw on another site that these are quotes from GBH 1985! Completely unrelated to today's church finances. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Even so, Hinkley was lying back then! They are double-lying when they use his lesser lie to cover up their greater lies. These RighteousMenOfGod are so devoid of common sense morals they appear to have lost the ability to even understand what honesty means anymore. Or they just got tired of even trying.

I totally agree, this is egregiously deceptive. My point on the first bit was that if you slice the pie small enough you can get down to where the annual business income is significantly less than the annual church expenses. You have to ignore the capital gains from their investments, along with land value increase, and just focus on what they make from the Deseret News and KSL and their mall. None of those are big profit generators, so the apologetic tactic would be to focus on those and hope your audience isn't aware of the real money. Very dishonest.

My understanding was that the church around 1985 was still not particularly wealthy, but the seeds were being planted. So these statements would have been less dishonest back then. But to use the same statement after the fruit has blossomed 1,000 fold is ridiculous. My numbers could be off...

Linked wrote: ↑Mon Aug 19, 2024 3:14 pm My understanding was that the church around 1985 was still not particularly wealthy, but the seeds were being planted. So these statements would have been less dishonest back then. But to use the same statement after the fruit has blossomed 1,000 fold is ridiculous. My numbers could be off...

Good point. It is like tryin to clarify the new temple changes by publishing a 1985 apologetic for why we symbolically slit our throats in the temple.