Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
Is the God you believe in reasonable?
I was reading a 1978 journal of a liberal (white)Church member who was trying to rationalize why God decided June 1978 was the right time to lift the priesthood/temple ban. He rationalized that God was just waiting for the time when the (99.9%) white membership would accept black people into full fellowship- any earlier and many white people would have left the Church over the acceptance of black people.
What the....?
I recall hearing that explanation frequently then, and I still hear it occasionally now.
The real question is, Is the Mormon God a reasonable God?
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.
Speaking of a reasonable God, why can't a non-alcoholic Moscow Mule be served in Utah? Actually, it can if you substitute Seven Up for the non-alcoholic ginger beer. The Utah God will try to be reasonable if you eliminate any product with beer in its name to avoid the appearance of evil. BTW, we reserve the right to redefine the word reasonable to match current doctrines. Hope that helps.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
Would a reasonable god send an angel commanding a man to take his ninth wife but not bother to tell him not to be racist? Would a reasonable god wake a man up in the middle of the night to tell him that god is offended by a nickname but not tell someone that honor code policies at BYU are putting young people at risk of rape? Would a reasonable god set up a structure where new bishops are proudly portrayed as being approved by the prophet but quickly disavowed as "just local leaders" (not sure if I can find that actual quote, but it's the spirit of what we are told) when they are caught abusing children? I could go on. You can tell what I think about Mormonism's god.
It is your fault for expecting God to act a certain way.
I resonate with this so much and when you really think about how the God of Mormonism acts (or of the OT for sure), it really becomes absurd to think this is a kind and loving God... but the moment you bring that up, you are blamed for thinking you know better than God.
"Offended" with nicknames? As mentioned earlier- nope- Another lie from the church. The names Mormon and LDS got tangled in too many internet and legal webs, so the higher ups had to make up a lie to justify spending a gazillion dollars, changing Mormon LDS this and that. All B.S. Shame the "believers" whenever they say Mormon or LDS instead of the proper inoffensive name. Good grief.
Makes sure when the one and only "true" church makes a donation that it doesn't do as explained in scriptures that the right hand not know what the left is doing or verse versa, but to send out news releases to show that they are doing their fair share to stamp out poverty and hunger.
My two bits for now, looking forward to some of the other comments. So far, quite enjoyable.
"Let no man count himself righteous who permits a wrong he could avert". N.N. Riddell
If you retranslate the part that Martin Harris lost, people will change the other version so they won't be quite the same.
These people are building a tower that's going to reach heaven. The only solution is giving each of them a different language.
Look at all these animals and people. Time to drown them all for no reason. Even the babies. Especially the babies. Will need to remember to get two kangaroos from way down in Australia and then put them back there afterward.
The Holy Ghost is going to give people occasional vague guidance to offset the constant concrete influence of Satan. He'll be perfect for the job, even though he has an intense fear of anti-Mormon teachings and will flee from documents.
deacon blues wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:15 am
The real question is, Is the Mormon God a reasonable God?
Any god who was actually reasonable would show up and tell their underlings what their rules and provisos are; So no, MORmON god is not reasonable. Neither are any of the other gods that humans have made up.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus
Gen 22:12 - And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
faith = fear
Consider what some Jewish people believe about Abraham/Isaac - sacrifice, Akedah.. not about Jesus for the Jews, they wrote it.
Immanuel Kant (1724–1804) - nobody is certain they are receiving prophecy from God (not tricked by false spirit), but everyone knows that murder is wrong, child sacrifice is wrong. Kant believes Abraham failed God’s test by agreeing to sacrifice Isaac. He should have refused. Strange, examples where prophets argue, ask questions, barter - Sodom etc. Abraham is praised for being willing to kill his son in the Torah - just reinforced tribalism/groupthink - you would think Jews would recognize the evils of groupthink and *chosen* people, supremist people.
Does someone believe in religion because it appears reasonable? They are following reason above faith.
Faith above reason = ultimate love? Twisted version of unhealthy love.
whatever God commands = good? Plato's Euthyphro dilemma.
The concept of God was invented by Neandertals to win fights, explain storms, bring fertility - the Jewish / Egyptian - it wasn't morality, it was survival, intimidation - my God give me this land, not you. My God kill you - barbaric superstitious fertility war gods - not a god of morality at all.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 3:26 am
I am going with Ganesh. Totally reasonable. Got a rat for a buggy. Writes with a tusk. Seems cool to me.
I love Ganesh. I keep a statue of him where I will see it every day.
As irrational and brutal as Yahweh is, it could be worse. Millions of people worshipped the South American god Ai Apaek, better known as The Decapitator. There was no problem that couldn't be addressed with a few more public decapitations.
One of the things I like about Yahweh is that he sometimes had to recognize his inferiority to other gods in the region. He was a relentless bully who was all about wholesale slaughter as long as he was sending his armies against the weaker kids, like the people of the mountains, but he succumbed to the people of the plains because they had chariots of iron. Who could stand up to those? (Judges 1:19). And then there was the time he sent his army to kill the Moabites, but the Moabite king was faithful enough to publicly sacrifice his own son to the local god Chemish, so the Israelites were driven out by Chemish's "great fury." (2 Kings 3:27 NIV). I picture the Israelites running away while their god scratches his chin and thinks, hmm, sacrificing your favorite son... worth a try?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Wonderful comments. I've said it before but it bears repeating. NOM beats the crap out of LDS Sunday School.
Thank goodness for the South Valley Community of St. Judas too.
Each new "revelation" tries to build on and reconcile previous traditions: ????-- Baal-- Jehovah--Jesus/Trinity-- Allah-- Mormon God.
My apologies if this offends--- Funny thing is: my emotional attachment to Jesus. He's the most human of the bunch. Does that have anything to do with it?
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.
I remember doing a short video a few years ago about how the God of the OT (and Mormonism) is supposed to be our Heavenly Father that loves each and every one of us and that we're not accountable for the sins of our fathers, etc...
Yet that same God drowned the entire planet including women, children, babies, and animals because God couldn't figure out how to fix people in any other way?
Like imagine being a father to a family and killing them all because they disappointed you - and we don't have to imagine because sadly that happens.
And yet we're supposed to think this God is actually all loving and powerful? It's absolutely absurd and horrifying the more you really think about the implications of the stories in the Bible/Book of Mormon/etc.
jfro18 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:16 am
Yet that same God drowned the entire planet including women, children, babies, and animals because God couldn't figure out how to fix people in any other way?
Like me, you were probably taught that he was just saving them from a fate worse than death. What was that fate? Believing in other gods (that Yahweh also knew and believed in). Right out of a PG-13 slasher movie for teens. "If I can't have you nobody can!"
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
deacon blues wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:15 amHe rationalized that God was just waiting for the time when the (99.9%) white membership would accept black people into full fellowship- any earlier and many white people would have left the Church over the acceptance of black people.
And yet people that use that argument seldom like it when you extend the exact same argument to other topics.
God is just waiting for the right time to give women the priesthood because lots of members that aren't ready for such a thing would leave if we did it now.
God is just waiting for the right time to do same sex sealings in the temple because lots of members that aren't ready for such a thing would leave if we did it now.
God is just waiting for the right time to let people drink tea because lots of members that inexplicably aren't ready for such a thing would leave if we did it now.
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
– Anais Nin
Ganesh is a dancer and is too nimble to be unreasonable. You would need somebody stomping around in a huff like Bruce R. McConkie, pretending to represent God, to be truly unreasonable.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
If my consciousness does survive the death of my meat bag, I expect my meeting with the mormon god to go down kind of like when Kirk and his crew found god:
RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:47 am
If my consciousness does survive the death of my meat bag, I expect my meeting with the mormon god to go down kind of like when Kirk and his crew found god:
RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:47 am
If my consciousness does survive the death of my meat bag, I expect my meeting with the mormon god to go down kind of like when Kirk and his crew found god:
Only a foolish man would build god's house upon a sandstone foundation...unless Brigham was inspired and had a vision of the future profits of the corporation, which would allow the prophets of the latter days to use their great profits to easily cover the expense of later replacing it. Now that would have been a better way to tell the story rather than make a movie out of it and lie to the membership. Windows of Heaven and all that.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams
I might have worded the title of this thread: "Does a reasonable God need carefully worded denials, hiding truths that aren't useful, and relentless emphasis of authority?" but it would fit in the 'Subject' box.
I read an idea from a Christian scholar that "God doesn't need our lies." (James Moffit translating Isaiah as quoted by Leonard Arrington.)
I might have replied a reasonable God doesn't, but what about the Mormon God? It seems that the Mormon God is really the COJCOLDS, nothing more and nothing less.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.
The very idea that a being that could be called God has the same needs and concerns as some old, white, male, privileged, narcissistic theocrat is pretty silly in the first place. What he really cares about most is that you've got that robe on the correct shoulder, and that you remember to stress that his spirit ALWAYS be with you in one prayer, but not the other.
A Celtic mystic, whose name I don't know, said, "the closer you get to God, the less it looks like God."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
my emotional attachment to Jesus. He's the most human of the bunch. Does that have anything to do with it?
