Gavin Newsom is more in tune with God’s will

[Mayan_Elephant]

I think it's perfectly understandable that people seeking a new life away from the control and dominion of the church, will look for new ideas of acceptance and tolerance towards people they were formerly taught to shun.
So, further discussion of politics should be moved to the coffee shop. JMO -- Wndr.

Let me know if you want anything else moved or removed.

Do you acknowledge that Clinton, Biden and Rachel Maddow are polarizing too? If I said that you were just another folk that places Gavin Newsom as more in tune with God’s will would you find that position credible?

No, I do not. I do not think there is any moral equivalent between any of these people and Donald Trump. In fact, there is no moral equivalent between Donald Trump and any U.S. President in American history. You cannot "both sides" a man who calls for the termination of the U.S. Constitution. You cannot "both sides" a man who insists that he won an election by millions of votes when there is no evidence whatsoever of that.
You cannot "both sides" a man who creates intense tribalism by railing against women, people of color, LGBT people, or anyone who disagrees with him. His bias is the same as the First Presidency. There is only one way to believe, one true prophet, and everyone else is condemned to outer darkness.

In 15 years here, I have never said ONE WORD about politics. But since you bring it up, let's address it head on. First of all, I like the penguin. I like his whimsical humor and his gentle observations on the world. He kindly points out racism and sexism when he sees it. I don't want a message board where intolerance is promoted towards women, LGBT people, people of color, gentiles, or anyone else to whom the First Presidency is opposed.

I don't want an internet version of the prejudices of the church or the conspiracy theories of the church. I don't want to have to tolerate people who believe that women are inferior, that they are property of their husbands, that their place is to be smiling, submissive subservient, and locked in the home while their husband orders them around.
That polarization and divisiveness is what we left behind.
I don't think you can "both sides" an issue, when one side works 24/7 to gin up as much rage and hatred about conspiracies as possible, then announces that Biden and Clinton are polarizing. There's only one side that fomented a violent rebellion against our U.S. Capitol, which we all watched on television. There's only one side that continues to push the conspiracy theory of a stolen election despite ZERO evidence.

I can see your point. And I can respectfully disagree. I am not sure that a both-sides rebuttal is more persuasive than a whatabout question, even a rhetorical one like mine.

I do not think there has been an acknowledgement that there is anything polarizing about Clinton, Biden or Maddow. I do not think that Moksha, Cns1, or anyone else, would find credible the accusation that Gavin Newsom's supporters or adherents believe that Newsom is more in touch with God's will. In fact, your response is that both sides, or a comparison, is not relevant so you also avoided acknowledging the quoted question and responding to it.

If by chance, you get to know my style and concerns more, you will come to find that I am not much interested in defending Trump. Hell, I am not even a registered voter anymore, despite a lifelong interest in politics. My grandmother who helped raise me was appointed by JFK to lead a federal office and was a delegate for the Democrats. She knew these players well and there were many Democrat leaders at her funeral. I watched many election nights on TV in her home. I remember her calling me while I was in college and telling me about the Gores and the Doles. This topic has been a passion for most of my life - and yet, under these conditions, I will not vote. I will not register to vote.

Blast Trump all you want. Good with me. I could not give less of a *****. Apologize for Biden and Clinton, great. Have a great time. Whatabout and block the both-er side. Coolio. I got it. All good. I have no intention of dissuading you or persuading you.

But.....

These folks seem to place Trump as more in tune with God's will that Nelson, and again.. that seems pretty scary to me, and I'm not a fan of Nelson. Russell that is... I love Willie.

^^^^^^^ is not a comment about Trump, that is a comment about "these folks." I am interested in these folks. I might even like one of them. I know this, I damn sure can learn something from one or more of them. That I know because I am just a guy who don't know **** about ****.

[Angel]

I'm independent, so on the outside of this. It seems like there might be a new group that has left the Mormon church because it no longer aligns with their political views? This is different from those who left because of ... history, lies, abuse, etc.

Why did everyone leave? If you had to name just one thing - the top of the list, what was it?

Mine - child abuse by high priest who was protected by church. Guess callings aren't from God. Guess priesthood doesn't protect. Not just one bad apple - it took a tribe to cover it year after year. I'm not the only one with this story.

Who is here for political reasons? Vaccinations? Mask? Lgbtq flip/flops? Not going to debate you - just curious.

[Mayan_Elephant]

I'm independent, so on the outside of this. It seems like there might be a new group that has left the Mormon church because it no longer aligns with their political views? This is different from those who left because of ... history, lies, abuse, etc.

Why did everyone leave? If you had to name just one thing - the top of the list, what was it?

Mine - child abuse by high priest who was protected by church. Guess callings aren't from God. Guess priesthood doesn't protect. Not just one bad apple - it took a tribe to cover it year after year. I'm not the only one with this story.

Who is here for political reasons? Vaccinations? Mask? Lgbtq flip/flops? Not going to debate you - just curious.

Wonderment is correct about my participation at They Foyer and the reincarnation at FLAK. At the same time, I was around when Faces East started.

I was with Carol Lynn Pearson at City Hall in San Francisco when the gay son of one of the bigshot LDS leaders was speaking after the Prop 8 vote. I have absolutely raged at and about the LDS machine, including the corporate machine, the history machine and the propaganda machine, and the doctrine machine.

I voted R and I voted D. I registered as R and I registered as D. Most recently, I was a registered D and voted for Tulsi and for Trump in 2020. Politics never played a role in my membership in the church, though it has often played a role in my rage and participation in forums and other groups.

I left because I did not want my kids to be raised in that system and in that machine. Though, I can say looking back, despite the stumbling and redirection along the way, I left because it was the best thing to do for me. Whatever the excuse was... self care was the core motivation. I was better out than in. The end.

I think that other people stay for self-care reasons too. Some stay because of other motivations. I do not think many stay because they think Trump is in tune with God and I don't think people who think Trump is in tune with God find comfort in the LDS church. But, hell, maybe I am wrong about that too and all I really know is that maybe there might be exceptions.

[Angel]

I'm independent, so on the outside of this. It seems like there might be a new group that has left the Mormon church because it no longer aligns with their political views? This is different from those who left because of ... history, lies, abuse, etc.

Why did everyone leave? If you had to name just one thing - the top of the list, what was it?

Mine - child abuse by high priest who was protected by church. Guess callings aren't from God. Guess priesthood doesn't protect. Not just one bad apple - it took a tribe to cover it year after year. I'm not the only one with this story.

Who is here for political reasons? Vaccinations? Mask? Lgbtq flip/flops? Not going to debate you - just curious.

Wonderment is correct about my participation at They Foyer and the reincarnation at FLAK. At the same time, I was around when Faces East started.

I was with Carol Lynn Pearson at City Hall in San Francisco when the gay son of one of the bigshot LDS leaders was speaking after the Prop 8 vote. I have absolutely raged at and about the LDS machine, including the corporate machine, the history machine and the propaganda machine, and the doctrine machine.

I voted R and I voted D. I registered as R and I registered as D. Most recently, I was a registered D and voted for Tulsi and for Trump in 2020. Politics never played a role in my membership in the church, though it has often played a role in my rage and participation in forums and other groups.

I left because I did not want my kids to be raised in that system and in that machine. Though, I can say looking back, despite the stumbling and redirection along the way, I left because it was the best thing to do for me. Whatever the excuse was... self care was the core motivation. I was better out than in. The end.

I think that other people stay for self-care reasons too. Some stay because of other motivations. I do not think many stay because they think Trump is in tune with God and I don't think people who think Trump is in tune with God find comfort in the LDS church. But, hell, maybe I am wrong about that too and all I really know is that maybe there might be exceptions.

Matthew Gong? Carol is amazing, all that she did for her husband.

For kids- put your own air mask on first and all that. As a parent, I know I'm a better parent after self-care .

I've voted for both parties - and 3rd party too. Some find that wishy-washy - but I think straight-party-liners are a bit of a muppet, party says jump - they say how high haha. I suppose the same personality that can change=see points of multiple political parties can also see the point of multiple religious groups.

Each story is unique, thanks for sharing part of yours!

[Wonderment]

Blast Trump all you want. Good with me. I could not give less of a *****. Apologize for Biden and Clinton, great. Have a great time. Whatabout and block the both-er side. Coolio. I got it. All good. I have no intention of dissuading you or persuading you.

I don't see any place in my message where I apologized for Biden/ Clinton. I see them as regular politicians with the regular problems that politicians face. Same thing with Sen. Mitt Romney, or Rep. Liz Cheney, or Gov. Chris Christie, Rep. Adam Kinzinger, Gov. Larry Hogan, Gov. Asa Hutchinson, Sen. Tim Scott, and so forth
Those are what I would call "regular" Republicans. I would like to get back to the time in American politics where regular GOP's, instead of MAGA Trump followers, are predominant in office.

Problems arise in American politics when the politicians or the churches promote the belief that any one politician is "in touch with God's will". Our country was founded as a secular nation, which means that our government does not reflect the orthodoxy of a certain church, but it acts as a servant to the people. In the United States, the people do not serve the ruler. The executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judicial branch, are there for the people.

You and I probably agree more than disagree on tenets about how the American political system should be set up.. - Wndr.

[moksha]

I am glad that many Mormons have not glommed onto Trump as the Messiah as have the MAGA Evangelists, I mean sure there are some Mormon extremists who stockpile their weapons and dream of assassinations, but no more so than in any other right-wing assemblage.

What are those Evangelists thinking?

[Mayan_Elephant]

I am glad that many Mormons have not glommed onto Trump as the Messiah as have the MAGA Evangelists, I mean sure there are some Mormon extremists who stockpile their weapons and dream of assassinations, but no more so than in any other right-wing assemblage.

What are those Evangelists thinking?

Do you know someone that is dreaming of assassinations, or are you just saying horrible things about people you do not know, again?

[Mayan_Elephant]

Blast Trump all you want. Good with me. I could not give less of a *****. Apologize for Biden and Clinton, great. Have a great time. Whatabout and block the both-er side. Coolio. I got it. All good. I have no intention of dissuading you or persuading you.

I don't see any place in my message where I apologized for Biden/ Clinton. I see them as regular politicians with the regular problems that politicians face. Same thing with Sen. Mitt Romney, or Rep. Liz Cheney, or Gov. Chris Christie, Rep. Adam Kinzinger, Gov. Larry Hogan, Gov. Asa Hutchinson, Sen. Tim Scott, and so forth
Those are what I would call "regular" Republicans. I would like to get back to the time in American politics where regular GOP's, instead of MAGA Trump followers, are predominant in office.

Problems arise in American politics when the politicians or the churches promote the belief that any one politician is "in touch with God's will". Our country was founded as a secular nation, which means that our government does not reflect the orthodoxy of a certain church, but it acts as a servant to the people. In the United States, the people do not serve the ruler. The executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judicial branch, are there for the people.

You and I probably agree more than disagree on tenets about how the American political system should be set up.. - Wndr.

You make a good point. A few good points. I think that many of these people you call MAGA Trump followers have had it up to here with regular Republicans like Bush, Romney and the Cheneys. In my opinion, Trump is a product of populism and not the leader of it. While MAGA and Trump have many fans (a point on which we likely agree), I believe that Cheney and Kinzinger got bounced for being establishment neocon apologists of the highest order.

I also think that L. Cheney and Kinzinger were absolutely ridiculous with their process where the end justified the means. The complete annihilation of the credibility in the process is what people notice and it generates reactions. If we can acknowledge that there is a predictable reaction to things like a clown court or counting ballots after dark, we can see that the reactions are not driven exclusively by one person or a single party.

[Wonderment]

I watched all of the video produced about the Jan. 6 events at the Capitol. The findings of the Jan. 6 committee seemed to match the events shown on the video. They heard from thousands of witnesses, many of whom were Republicans or staffers.Rusty Bowers, a devout Mormon from AZ and the speaker of the Arizona House of Reps., testified to the committee and will probably testify at the trial. Those events are all recorded on video, and will be used as corroborating evidence once the trial begins. -- Wndr.

[wtfluff]

I am glad that many Mormons have not glommed onto Trump as the Messiah as have the MAGA Evangelists, I mean sure there are some Mormon extremists who stockpile their weapons and dream of assassinations, but no more so than in any other right-wing assemblage.

What are those Evangelists thinking?

Do you know someone that is dreaming of assassinations, or are you just saying horrible things about people you do not know, again?

Utah man suspected of threatening President Joe Biden shot and killed as FBI served warrant

Utah man accused of threatening president pointed gun at agents, FBI says

[Mayan_Elephant]

I watched all of the video produced about the Jan. 6 events at the Capitol. The findings of the Jan. 6 committee seemed to match the events shown on the video. They heard from thousands of witnesses, many of whom were Republicans or staffers.Rusty Bowers, a devout Mormon from AZ and the speaker of the Arizona House of Reps., testified to the committee and will probably testify at the trial. Those events are all recorded on video, and will be used as corroborating evidence once the trial begins. -- Wndr.

I believe that.

I am sure there are others who saw videos “produced” about the same topic and came to different conclusions.

What trial?

[Mayan_Elephant]

I am glad that many Mormons have not glommed onto Trump as the Messiah as have the MAGA Evangelists, I mean sure there are some Mormon extremists who stockpile their weapons and dream of assassinations, but no more so than in any other right-wing assemblage.

What are those Evangelists thinking?

Do you know someone that is dreaming of assassinations, or are you just saying horrible things about people you do not know, again?

Utah man suspected of threatening President Joe Biden shot and killed as FBI served warrant

Utah man accused of threatening president pointed gun at agents, FBI says

Cmon man. I thought for sure the response would be a nasty picture of Kathy Griffin holding the president’s severed head. Ya know, the one she tweeted. She Mormon?

[Cnsl1]

Good lord...

The folks I was referring to, and I do know some, are inching their way out of the church because they, if I understand their position correctly, feel the current leadership is too liberal in some areas and are becoming more "mainstream" and tolerant while the constitution begins to hang by a thread. These folks are very supportive of Trump and follow all the far right media. I've heard them make comments such as the brethren are out of touch and Trump really knows what's going on.

I don't know who Gavin Newsome is. Did he used to be with the Byrds? Heh

I don't think the "folks" above represent a large percentage of the people leaving the church, but it startled me as to how many in my local community appear to lean that direction. These are the same people who were startled and a bit upset that Nelson encouraged vaccinations. That was a definitive moment for them. Do they follow the prophet or follow their conscience. I witnessed rationalizations, such as "the prophet didn't command it" and I saw some of these folks tragically die when a vaccine might have saved them.

Politics have always been polarizing. And like some of you, I've voted Repuligun,I've voted Democrap, and I've voted other parties. At heart I'm an Independent and that's what my voter card currently says.

I used to feel that if our country swung left a while then right a while maybe we'd stay somewhere near the middle of the road, but anymore it doesn't seem like there is much left in the middle of the road but me, some yellow lines, and a bunch of dead jackrabbits. I do feel that Trump has fomented more polarization than politicians and presidents before him (within my lifetime), but it's not just him. I think a bigger factor is this age we're in... not the information age, but the monetization of attention age. It takes effort, real effort, to avoid conformation bias and seek out truth or accuracy. We're no longer swinging back and forth from the left to the right side of the road, but have diverged into completely different ballparks and world views. It is frightening. Some might claim it's always been that way, but it sure feels different now. Much different. At least that's my opinion.

I also strongly feel that Trump has narcissistic personality disorder. My opinion is based on my training and my observations of his behavior, what he says, and how he says it, not on anything I've "learned" through other sources. I've also watched him foster conflict when there is no disagreement or conflict needed I have sincerely tried to like him. I give people the benefit of the doubt and understand that there is always more to the story. But then he talks.. and talks. And I do not want that man in any position of political power ever ever again.

But he still is, so... damn.

As to why I left the church. I've not completely left, but I completely do not believe. It was like most people--historicity, BofAbraham, polygamy, blacks and priesthood. The BofM was always something I could hold on to, however, to keep me in. But then reading some early American literature on George Washington, I found Captain Moroni. Then the anachronisms. When the BofM fell for me, that was it. I tried to forgive or explain all the discrepancies within the doctrine and scriptures and history, but when I finally let myself consider "what if it's NOT true" all the pieces came together and made so much more sense. I used to feel pretty alone, then found NOM and stay lds, and realized i was one of thousands. I then tried to "lift where i stood" to help make the church a better place, at least within my local area. But now, I've just slowly slowly slipped a little farther out. I attend maybe once a month, depending on the time of year. Local leaders don't bother me... at least right now. I think they know where i stand. And I'm nice. I help with some things. I do not clean the church, but I will help with things I'm particularly suited to help with. I love most of the people. I've been in the same ward for many years. I will not give the church any money but I regularly give money to people or organizations in need. That's more about me than you want to know

[Mayan_Elephant]

Thank you.

Based on my book about A-holes, D-Bags, P****** and Dicks, I think Trump is a POS or an A-Hole.

I agree with your description of some people who are disgruntled with Nelson for the reasons you described. That aligns with populism more than Trump fandom.

[wtfluff]

Do you know someone that is dreaming of assassinations, or are you just saying horrible things about people you do not know, again?

Utah man suspected of threatening President Joe Biden shot and killed as FBI served warrant

Utah man accused of threatening president pointed gun at agents, FBI says

Cmon man. I thought for sure the response would be a nasty picture of Kathy Griffin holding the president’s severed head. Ya know, the one she tweeted. She Mormon?

Oh I see. I'll try not make something up in the future instead of bringing up fact.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Utah man suspected of threatening President Joe Biden shot and killed as FBI served warrant

Utah man accused of threatening president pointed gun at agents, FBI says

Cmon man. I thought for sure the response would be a nasty picture of Kathy Griffin holding the president’s severed head. Ya know, the one she tweeted. She Mormon?

Oh I see. I'll try not make something up in the future instead of bringing up fact.

Great. Lets both do that.

Now. What are the facts in this case? At any time were this guy’s dreams considered factual? How are his dreams different in outcome to Kamala Harris’s dreams, and how can I determine the factual accuracy of these dreams? Did Madonna dream of assassination of a POTUS?

If I dream that you dream of scoring a goal in the world cup does that mean you will make the USMNT?

[wtfluff]

Oh I see. I'll try not make something up in the future instead of bringing up fact.

Great. Lets both do that.

Now. What are the facts in this case? At any time were this guy’s dreams considered factual?

This guy continually posted his "dreams" of assassinating various Democrats on social media.
At one point he actually tried to use that as his defense: "It was just a dream."
He also posted photos of his stockpile of weapons on social media.

How are his dreams different in outcome to Kamala Harris’s dreams,

I don't know. How many times has Kamala Harris posted about assassinating republicans on her social media, and pulled a firearm on the FBI when
they showed up at her house?

and how can I determine the factual accuracy of these dreams?

When you figure out your criteria for "factual accuracy" maybe we can answer that question together.

If I dream that you dream of scoring a goal in the world cup does that mean you will make the USMNT?

I sure hope so.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Oh I see. I'll try not make something up in the future instead of bringing up fact.

Great. Lets both do that.

Now. What are the facts in this case? At any time were this guy’s dreams considered factual?

This guy continually posted his "dreams" of assassinating various Democrats on social media.
At one point he actually tried to use that as his defense: "It was just a dream."
He also posted photos of his stockpile of weapons on social media.

How are his dreams different in outcome to Kamala Harris’s dreams,

I don't know. How many times has Kamala Harris posted about assassinating republicans on her social media, and pulled a firearm on the FBI when
they showed up at her house?

and how can I determine the factual accuracy of these dreams?

When you figure out your criteria for "factual accuracy" maybe we can answer that question together.

If I dream that you dream of scoring a goal in the world cup does that mean you will make the USMNT?

I sure hope so.

We are good. He was posting threats. The dreams may or may not be true. Who the hell knows? Posting naughty stuff was the facts and that is bad.

Claiming that a dream is a fact is, well, pretty much Josephy Smithy at best.

[wtfluff]

Claiming that a dream is a fact is, well, pretty much Josephy Smithy at best.

Russell M. "Rusty" Nelson has entered the thread. (With his majick, lighted pen.)





Sorry, couldn't help myself...

[moksha]

Cmon man. I thought for sure the response would be a nasty picture of Kathy Griffin holding the president’s severed head. Ya know, the one she tweeted. She Mormon?

Best to keep up with current events. The story even made international news.