Eckhart Tolle describing NOMs

[Hagoth]

(although he was speaking in general terms about egoic institutions)

"A collective ego manifests the same characteristics as the personal ego, such as the need for conflict and enemies, the need for more, the need to be right against others who are wrong, and so on. Sooner of later, the collective will come into conflict with other collectives, because it unconsciously seeks conflict and it needs opposition to define its boundary and thus its identity. Its members will then experience the suffering that inevitably comes in the wake of any ego-motivated action. At that point, they may wake up and realize that their collective has a strong element of insanity." A New Earth, p. 125-6

[Palerider]

I like to say, "Your friends don't always tell you what you need to hear."

[moksha]

So NOMs have a strong element of insanity? That would explain the Starship Nauvoo and its multi-generational mission to "Hie to Kolob" and leave those of us so afflicted behind on Earth.

[Gatorbait]

Great quote. Thank you.

We see this ego driven "we are right" attitude in our church no doubt about that, but unfortunately, we seem to it in many places as well, other churches, I remember a Bill Burr bit how he had thought growing up that the church he belonged to was the true and right one and everyone else was just stupid. I like that. We see it in sports- fanatic fans, flags- I'm a patriot, or support whichever group I feel for; in politics- good grief in every way possible. We have people who continually try to shame others to build themselves up by making the world aware of things like global warming or other environmental issues, as if they are the ones who have the right to preach to the rest of us, that they "get it" and the rest of us are just stupid. No matter if we are already doing our best to help save the planet. It never ends.

Ego- having to be right all the damn time. This, to me, is an element of insanity for sure.

[Hagoth]

So NOMs have a strong element of insanity? That would explain the Starship Nauvoo and its multi-generational mission to "Hie to Kolob" and leave those of us so afflicted behind on Earth.

No, NOMs would be the ones waking up to the realization that the collective ego (church) is insane.

[Hagoth]

Great quote. Thank you.

We see this ego driven "we are right" attitude in our church no doubt about that, but unfortunately, we seem to it in many places as well, other churches, I remember a Bill Burr bit how he had thought growing up that the church he belonged to was the true and right one and everyone else was just stupid. I like that. We see it in sports- fanatic fans, flags- I'm a patriot, or support whichever group I feel for; in politics- good grief in every way possible. We have people who continually try to shame others to build themselves up by making the world aware of things like global warming or other environmental issues, as if they are the ones who have the right to preach to the rest of us, that they "get it" and the rest of us are just stupid. No matter if we are already doing our best to help save the planet. It never ends.

Ego- having to be right all the damn time. This, to me, is an element of insanity for sure.

Yes, it has been the standard operating procedure for humans since we started clumping up into national and ideological identities. Behaviors that are common in governments and churches are easily recognized as pathology when an individual person is doing the exact same things.

[alas]

So NOMs have a strong element of insanity? That would explain the Starship Nauvoo and its multi-generational mission to "Hie to Kolob" and leave those of us so afflicted behind on Earth.

No, NOMs would be the ones waking up to the realization that the collective ego (church) is insane.

But I like Moksha’s version. We NOMs are all insane.

And seriously, I think we NOMs are just as ego prone as anyone else as just as prone to telling ourselves that we are correct and all believers are (fill in the blank, naive, stupid, misinformed, endoctrinated, etc) we we know from experience that saying it here isn’t too smart because we disagree with each other enough to keep us from voicing “I think I am right in believing in Jesus, but not the church. We would get jumped on. The only thing we agree on here is that the church is wrong.

[moksha]

Desiderata
Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.

Let us never be like the knights from Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail who failed to follow the path of the Penitent Man. The Brethren might choose not to be humble and bow down, but that is no reason for us not to do so. As the Desiderata points out, all have their story. We might snigger at the story, but we fully respect the person.

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace with your soul.

Insane or not, let's celebrate ourselves.

[RubinHighlander]

So NOMs have a strong element of insanity? That would explain the Starship Nauvoo and its multi-generational mission to "Hie to Kolob" and leave those of us so afflicted behind on Earth.

Only to have their precious ship stolen from them by belters.

This is the hope I have for Huntsman's lawsuit being reinstated, that it might pave the way for a trend for the people to start taking back all the resources that were stolen from them by the big non-prophet corporations on this planet. Sorry for the tangent.

The tribalism in our genetics is evidence to me that evolution is based on pure phuckery. The modis of this existence via creation and destruction: being able to evolve biological life on a little blue orb in the expanse, to a point it created a conscious construct of moralities via a grey matter computer in a water based meat bag, growing to the level it's able and willing to destroy itself to extinction, simultaneously capable of the greatest artistic beauty and the most heinous atrocities against it's own kind; truly it's an existence based on insanity.

[Angel]

"Neighbors described Robertson as a frail, elderly man — his online profile put his age as 74 — who walked with the aid of a hand-carved stick. Though he regularly carried guns, they said he didn’t seem a threat.

“There’s no way that he was driving from here to Salt Lake City, setting up a rifle and taking a shot at the president — 100% no way,” said neighbor Andrew Maunder outside the church across from Robertson’s street."

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/08/0 ... d-00110554

That nice old gentleman at church would never have a social media account like that, or weapons like that in his home. - whaaa???

The church is right... Trump is right... hand in hand, religion and right.

[Hagoth]

The only thing we agree on here is that the church is wrong.

Is insane.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Great quote. Thank you.

We see this ego driven "we are right" attitude in our church no doubt about that, but unfortunately, we seem to it in many places as well, other churches, I remember a Bill Burr bit how he had thought growing up that the church he belonged to was the true and right one and everyone else was just stupid. I like that. We see it in sports- fanatic fans, flags- I'm a patriot, or support whichever group I feel for; in politics- good grief in every way possible. We have people who continually try to shame others to build themselves up by making the world aware of things like global warming or other environmental issues, as if they are the ones who have the right to preach to the rest of us, that they "get it" and the rest of us are just stupid. No matter if we are already doing our best to help save the planet. It never ends.

Ego- having to be right all the damn time. This, to me, is an element of insanity for sure.

Yep. Well, sorta yep. I do think that groups behave selfishly just like individuals behave selfishly. Is it really insane though? I mean, what in the actual hell is not working in politics, for example? It is not insane to repeat victimization if victimization is working. Is it really insane to repeat bullying acts if being a bully works? Is it really insane to behave like a sheeple for the cause if being a sheeple for the cause is working? Is it insane to get a dozen covid vaccine boosters if it helps a person fit in the tribe? Or, is it insane to not get one ever because one's information does not validate the risk? My answer - no. That is not insanity in either case. Either choice is just doing what is best for the person or the group, depending on one's priority.

I believe calling something insane, a medical or pathological condition that we can't truly qualify, prevents us from distinguishing actual victims from the fakeass victims. Calling someone insane, prevents us from looking at whether they are just imitating a group or whether they are truly submissive, for example. The true parts are more interesting than the grand stereotype.

[Hagoth]

I believe calling something insane, a medical or pathological condition that we can't truly qualify, prevents us from distinguishing actual victims from the fakeass victims. Calling someone insane, prevents us from looking at whether they are just imitating a group or whether they are truly submissive, for example. The true parts are more interesting than the grand stereotype.

But remember, what I'm saying is that the actions of large corporations, institutions, governments, and scripture stories (a significant omission from my earlier post), if they were acted out by individuals, would be considered pathological by just about anybody looking on.

A guy goes to his ex-wife's house, burns it down and kills her, the new husband and their kids because he insists that they refused to believe they would be better off if they subjugated themselves to him. Someone murders every man, woman, child, and animal in the neighboring town because a voice in his head told him to. Everyone in a neighborhood stockpiles enough explosives to destroy the entire town ten times over, out of mutual fear. A character from the other side of the planet, who many believed was fictional, shows up in your town one day and kills every man, woman, and child who didn't believe he was real, but showers love and compassion on those who believed the rumors about him.

[deacon blues]

I like to say, "Your friends don't always tell you what you need to hear."

So freaking true!!! Unless you cultivate friendly critics. Science does this. Messy but good governments do this.

I see some of this in NOM.

The CHURCH of Jesus Christ of LDS.... not so much.

[Mayan_Elephant]

I believe calling something insane, a medical or pathological condition that we can't truly qualify, prevents us from distinguishing actual victims from the fakeass victims. Calling someone insane, prevents us from looking at whether they are just imitating a group or whether they are truly submissive, for example. The true parts are more interesting than the grand stereotype.

But remember, what I'm saying is that the actions of large corporations, institutions, governments, and scripture stories (a significant omission from my earlier post), if they were acted out by individuals, would be considered pathological by just about anybody looking on.

A guy goes to his ex-wife's house, burns it down and kills her, the new husband and their kids because he insists that they refused to believe they would be better off if they subjugated themselves to him. Someone murders every man, woman, child, and animal in the neighboring town because a voice in his head told him to. Everyone in a neighborhood stockpiles enough explosives to destroy the entire town ten times over, out of mutual fear. A character from the other side of the planet, who many believed was fictional, shows up in your town one day and kills every man, woman, and child who didn't believe he was real, but showers love and compassion on those who believed the rumors about him.

What about delivering severed arms? Is that on the spectrum for a clinical diagnosis? I am going with a yes on that one. I think one arm would have been enough.

Sending in the mohels is still considered normal, not pathological. Dinah's brothers were tough dudes, but at least that mohel part was not patho. Knocking the hell out of the perp's village is, by contemporary standards, pathological only depending what pathological creep you like or not. If you don't like what some Saudi folks did, you can knock hell out of any neighbor, for example. If you don't like what the people that Russia doesn't like did, then you obviously can't really not like what Russia did no matter what so you have to like what the people that Russia doesn't like do, or did, even if you also don't like what Russia did.

[Hagoth]

Sending in the mohels is still considered normal, not pathological.

That doesn't mean it isn't pathological. You cut off the end of a baby's penis because it's what your culture and your God (supposedly) tell you to do, so that's ok. But if it wasn't a long-standing tradition and some dude started going door to door telling you God sent him to cut off the end of every baby boy's penis? Pretty freakin' pathological.

If you don't like what some Saudi folks did, you can knock hell out of any neighbor, for example. If you don't like what the people that Russia doesn't like did, then you obviously can't really not like what Russia did no matter what so you have to like what the people that Russia doesn't like do, or did, even if you also don't like what Russia did.

Yeah, institutional pathology is commonly used to justify the use of pathological behavior in response to other pathological behavior. It's all crazy nested dolls thinking. If we can ever somehow mature enough as a species to outgrow the impulse of hating/coveting/villainizing everyone who is just a little bit different than ourselves, nobody would have to "do things" like that to anybody.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Sending in the mohels is still considered normal, not pathological.

That doesn't mean it isn't pathological. You cut off the end of a baby's penis because it's what your culture and your God (supposedly) tell you to do, so that's ok. But if it wasn't a long-standing tradition and some dude started going door to door telling you God sent him to cut off the end of every baby boy's penis? Pretty freakin' pathological.

If you don't like what some Saudi folks did, you can knock hell out of any neighbor, for example. If you don't like what the people that Russia doesn't like did, then you obviously can't really not like what Russia did no matter what so you have to like what the people that Russia doesn't like do, or did, even if you also don't like what Russia did.

Yeah, institutional pathology is commonly used to justify the use of pathological behavior in response to other pathological behavior. It's all crazy nested dolls thinking. If we can ever somehow mature enough as a species to outgrow the impulse of hating/coveting/villainizing everyone who is just a little bit different than ourselves, nobody would have to "do things" like that to anybody.

Agreed! Yep!

Sometimes I think the world would be a better place if there were more saloon brawls and we tore down the goal posts more often when our team won.

Getting jacked up over small differences and institutions isnt working out.