NOM

As a missionary I had Ephesians 2:8-9 thrown in my face countless times. It was THE proof text that Mormons were wrong, that Mormons weren't really Christians, etc. When I first found a JS translation, I expectantly looked it up hoping to find that it had been mistranslated. "Strange," I thought at the time, "Joseph Smith, for whatever reason, left it basically intact."
I reflected on the influence of that one scripture over the history of Christianity. "Why the heck did God inspire it, or even allow it to be put in there?"
Was Paul really inspired to write that?
My perspective from years later is 180 degrees different from what it was then, but I still wonder, "Do LDS think God inspired those verses, and for what reasons?"
Why would God, who could see the beginning from the end, let that go into His word?
That question could be applied to hundreds of verses throughout all the standard works.

Two more things: Eph. 2:8-9 is the scripture that says "We are saved by grace, not works, lest any man should boast."
2: This is an example of my weird way of looking at things, wondering- What are those Mormons thinking?

Mormons have to turn to the BOM, you're saved by grace after all you can do. So Ephesians is one of the "translation errors" of the NT.

Of course, it's likely that Paul didn't write Ephesians at all, but is instead Paul fan fiction or apologia.

In the more authentic of Paul's letters, it's debatable that he thinks the resurrection and atonement occurred physically here on earth. And so with a more otherworldly form of those ideas, grace may make more sense that actual repentance. Where entrance into the kingdom of god would be at first otherworldly before being brought to our earth at some future point, it would seem that grace is more akin to permission linguistically. Perhaps related to the English usage of using "your grace" to refer to royalty. It would be interesting to look at the original greek and it's then current usage.

Morons use it like everything else. You pick and choose what works with your current prophet's opinion and ignore everything that doesn't. If Paul had written in clear detail that the sure sign of Satan's church would the creation of shell companies to deceive the tax collectors and the members, Mormons wouldn't see the relevance.

I think Paul was a usurper who did not necessarily represent Jesus' intensions. He might just as well have made his church about MIthra and, except for a few specifics about things like the crucifixion, he could have taught pretty much the same gospel.

One other reason to respect the thinking of America’s founding father and author of D of Independence Thomas Jefferson. He created his own Bible by tossing out Paul.

Grace/faith vs. obedience/works is a debate that's been raging for much longer than Mormonism has been a thing.

There's an acknowledgement that Christ's atonement is vital, it's impossible to be saved without the grace of that act, but also a built-in response to a logical conclusion; if we're saved by grace, why bother with all of this works business? Well... you see... you gotta do those too.

I think much of it, both the grace and the works, feels like it's rooted in fear. People are generally afraid they won't be saved.
I'm afraid I won't be saved, so I need a savior to pay the price of the mistakes I've made so I will be saved.
I'm afraid I won't be saved, so I concentrate on doing as many good works and being as obedient as possible so I will be saved.

We all know that Mormonism comes down hard on the obedience/works side of the equation. We take Christ's atonement as a given/for granted and proceed on to the part where we turn everything into an if>then formula that will bind god and earn us our salvation.

Do you fear death? Do these ordinances, check these boxes, be more obedient, and god's hands are pretty much tied, he'll have to save you! Oh yeah, and something or other about Jesus because checking these boxes wouldn't be possible without him. Hey, I don't see boxes being checked!

What's the 2nd anointing other than a fear based response to worry over not being saved? You see! I've got my 2nd anointing, it's a done deal!

That's the Mormon formula. It doesn't feel like there's any grace or mercy personally extended by Jesus because of his sacrifice. It's all stick and no carrot. Maybe the worry is that giving too much carrot will cause people to eat, drink, and be merry so it's stick 24/7.

dogbite wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:51 pm Mormons have to turn to the BOM, you're saved by grace after all you can do. So Ephesians is one of the "translation errors" of the NT.

And my experience has been that in Mormonism enough is never enough. Take whatever it is that you're doing. Great. But you could be doing a lot more. Grace in Mormonism is like the horizon. You can see it off in the distance and move towards it, but it is forever out of reach.

It probably goes back to that worry. If you extend a little grace to people it will be a slippery slope to hedonism, so take out that stick and inspire some works that will surely earn us our spot in heaven. ...oh yeah, and add a dash of Jesus so we can say he's a part of all of this.

It seems to me that Paul has a tendency to stretch the truth a bit. The stories in the first part of Acts seem to be much more miraculous than the ones that happen after the author of Acts/Luke joins the expedition.