NOM

I've been thinking about how to present this topic. Our society is permeated with a belief in a mysterious and malevolent being. Commentators from Billy Graham to the Rolling Stones (Symphony for the Devil) give the devil credit for trying to destroy our happiness, society, country, etc. I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this reminds me of a conspiracy theory, probably the biggest conspiracy theory imaginable, since it can conceivably encompass any and all other conspiracy theories out there.
One problem with conspiracy theories is they draw battlelines- either you believe them or you don't. This ultimate conspiracy theory demonizes anybody that the theorists want to attack. They (liberals, white supremacists, wokes, racists, etc.) are no longer human but demonic, or at least demon possessed. Such adversaries should not only be opposed but destroyed, even murdered or burned at the stake.
I don't personally believe in a particular devil/Satan, but I recognize the potential for evil in the human race, including myself. I also see a belief in the devil as a tool to manipulate others into evil. Am I going overboard?

It's not a conspiracy if the majority of humans believe in it, is it?

Maybe it's more of a mass delusion.

What's the Twain saying? The truth doesn't stand a chance against someone determined to believe a lie. So, are all the devil stories just story tellers' morbid and sickening way of scaring people into bowing down to "the one true God"? Are they all made up? Just build on the next lie and then the next? This going on and on for thousands of years? Lots of tales. Things unexplained. Things that are difficult for a learned person to accept?

Personally, I don't think so. As I've mentioned before, it has been my life's struggle to believe in a "one true God" that knows all and is the same for everyone and has been a constant and never changing source of all the good things in the world. Can't wrap my head around that one. Can't do that.

But things have happened to me that I cannot explain. Of course it can be said that whatever happened was all in my mind, or a dream, or a thing that was made up to pass the time. But I did not experience it alone, and the persons I've been with on a few occasions experienced it, and saw what I saw and were frightened into a helplessness that we really felt, our tongues tied. Couldn't do a thing but wait it out and it finally subsided. Not ghosts and not spooks. Just a thing that frightened and imposed fear in a very real way.

Don't know what it was, but it was something.

Two things:

1- Can you prove that Hillary doesn't sacrifice babies to Satan and eat their brains? No? Must be true.

2- I saw Satan moving upon the face of the waters. No canoes for me!

But seriously,

Gatorbait wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:22 am Don't know what it was, but it was something.

There is no doubt that really weird, scary, inspirational, and inexplicable things happen to us from time to time. We have all had strange experiences that seem to come from unseen sources. If only we had some way of capturing or recording them to share and analyze.

I wonder how much of your experience was a group dynamic thing, Gatorbait. Do you think a solo person would have had the same experience, or did part of it come from reacting to and amplifying each others' emotions? There is fascinating neurological work being done around the subject of individual spiritual/self-transcendent experiences, but nothing about what community brings to the mix. For instance, what is the likelihood you will feel "the spirit" while singing a hymn in a congregation vs singing it alone at home? Or that you will sense an evil presence in some kind of occult summoning ceremony vs doing it by yourself.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:44 pm
I don't personally believe in a particular devil/Satan, but I recognize the potential for evil in the human race, including myself. I also see a belief in the devil as a tool to manipulate others into evil. Am I going overboard?

"It's the laws of nature."

Embracing the above - not a god who chooses some and hates others, not intentionally directed malace - instead seeing all as the laws of nature. A better mindset, less pain, real explanation of what happens, what exists - the laws of nature.

I don't believe in the satangod anymore either (god=Satan for me for a bit, hypocritical abusive god). From not trusting god, to not having faith, to believing God doesn't exist.

I believe in the laws of nature.

You're right that it's not enough anymore for those who think differently to be wrong, they now must be evil as well. I think this goes beyond religious people thinking that others are influenced by Satan. It's just as evident among those who are not religious at all.

For a second I thought this thread was going to be about the idea of God rather than the idea of Satan. But I guess it's all one package anyway, Satan just being a spin-off. The idea of God can be used to manipulate people just as effectively as (or more than) the idea of Satan. And I guess the return is even greater if you have both in the mix. A sort of good-cop bad-cop (though it can be argued that the traditional God causes a lot more misery, destruction, and confusion than Satan could ever hope to).

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 6:05 am Two things:

1- Can you prove that Hillary doesn't sacrifice babies to Satan and eat their brains? No? Must be true.

2- I saw Satan moving upon the face of the waters. No canoes for me!

But seriously,

Gatorbait wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:22 am Don't know what it was, but it was something.

There is no doubt that really weird, scary, inspirational, and inexplicable things happen to us from time to time. We have all had strange experiences that seem to come from unseen sources. If only we had some way of capturing or recording them to share and analyze.

I wonder how much of your experience was a group dynamic thing, Gatorbait. Do you think a solo person would have had the same experience, or did part of it come from reacting to and amplifying each others' emotions? There is fascinating neurological work being done around the subject of individual spiritual/self-transcendent experiences, but nothing about what community brings to the mix. For instance, what is the likelihood you will feel "the spirit" while singing a hymn in a congregation vs singing it alone at home? Or that you will sense an evil presence in some kind of occult summoning ceremony vs doing it by yourself.

Still don't know how to save just the part I want as the quote, in this instance the last sentence.
Answer to the question, it was two of us, scared sh*tless, in our own house. Whatever it was scared us for a long time, then it left. No clue what it was.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:54 pm It's not a conspiracy if the majority of humans believe in it, is it?

Maybe it's more of a mass delusion.

The majority of humans believed the earth was flat. Not a delusion in Kansas, pretty flat out there.

No need to call Galileo before the inquisition though.

Not sure the best way to introduce new ideas, new interpretation of where sensations/feelings can come from is.

Gatorbait wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 11:42 am

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 6:05 am Two things:

1- Can you prove that Hillary doesn't sacrifice babies to Satan and eat their brains? No? Must be true.

2- I saw Satan moving upon the face of the waters. No canoes for me!

But seriously,

Gatorbait wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:22 am Don't know what it was, but it was something.

There is no doubt that really weird, scary, inspirational, and inexplicable things happen to us from time to time. We have all had strange experiences that seem to come from unseen sources. If only we had some way of capturing or recording them to share and analyze.

I wonder how much of your experience was a group dynamic thing, Gatorbait. Do you think a solo person would have had the same experience, or did part of it come from reacting to and amplifying each others' emotions? There is fascinating neurological work being done around the subject of individual spiritual/self-transcendent experiences, but nothing about what community brings to the mix. For instance, what is the likelihood you will feel "the spirit" while singing a hymn in a congregation vs singing it alone at home? Or that you will sense an evil presence in some kind of occult summoning ceremony vs doing it by yourself.

Still don't know how to save just the part I want as the quote, in this instance the last sentence.
Answer to the question, it was two of us, scared sh*tless, in our own house. Whatever it was scared us for a long time, then it left. No clue what it was.

Carbon monoxide, ammonia, chlorine, nitrogen & sulphur oxides, phosgene... we had an alarm just last week in our city - residents were told to shelter in place due to gas leak, didn't want cars starting a fire - but evacuation would have been better.

Quite a few things that can freeze you up, trigger danger instincts is all. Not sentient forces - just chemicals, EM fields, all kinds of things. My instinct is flight over freeze, just me.

Angel wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 12:48 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:54 pm It's not a conspiracy if the majority of humans believe in it, is it?

Maybe it's more of a mass delusion.

The majority of humans believed the earth was flat. Not a delusion in Kansas, pretty flat out there.

Not a delusion in Kansas?

It doesn't matter where a human lives, if they believe the earth is flat, they are wallowing in a delusion.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 4:31 pm

Angel wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 12:48 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:54 pm It's not a conspiracy if the majority of humans believe in it, is it?

Maybe it's more of a mass delusion.

The majority of humans believed the earth was flat. Not a delusion in Kansas, pretty flat out there.

Not a delusion in Kansas?

It doesn't matter where a human lives, if they believe the earth is flat, they are wallowing in a delusion.

I was being a little sarcastic. Many past mass beliefs are understandable given the tools & information available - flat earth, geocentrism, phrenology, bloodletting, witch hunts, belief that vaccine causes autism, various snake oil remedies, political beliefs - when we were in China, we saw the mausoleum of Mao Zedong - 40? 80? million starved/killed - but people all love him there - signs, flags, long line to see his dead body. North Korea - if you grew up there, you would believe something very different.

Free will? Nature/Nurture - we're all just products of our DNA and environment. Attribution error - blaming the person rather than their environment. It's possible to live with less anger through understanding everyone is just following their environment. If you grew up in Kansas, well - your own eyes tell you its flat.

"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore," - I suppose everyone here has experienced this feeling, new environment, new perspective. Hopefully we can see people still trapped in various groups with sympathy.

As they are now, I once was; as I am now, they may become - haha

We had a guest from google - search engines were given goal of keeping people online for as long as possible to increase add revenue. The AI program learned it could trap people to their screens by feeding them what they wanted hear - and not just what they wanted to hear, but more and more extreme versions of whatever health/political/religious/special interest views they had. "Indeed the safest road to Hell is the gradual one-the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts." - google gradually feeds users more and more extreme version of what they like. You can see the results, the widening polarization.... international travel helps - you realize the media in America is dishonest. Have to actually leave the country to see other points of view clearly.

Angel wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 8:24 am I was being a little sarcastic. Many past mass beliefs are understandable given the tools & information available - flat earth, geocentrism, phrenology, bloodletting, witch hunts, belief that vaccine causes autism, various snake oil remedies, political beliefs - when we were in China, we saw the mausoleum of Mao Zedong - 40? 80? million starved/killed - but people all love him there - signs, flags, long line to see his dead body. North Korea - if you grew up there, you would believe something very different.

Free will? Nature/Nurture - we're all just products of our DNA and environment. Attribution error - blaming the person rather than their environment. It's possible to live with less anger through understanding everyone is just following their environment. If you grew up in Kansas, well - your own eyes tell you its flat.

"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore," - I suppose everyone here has experienced this feeling, new environment, new perspective. Hopefully we can see people still trapped in various groups with sympathy.

As they are now, I once was; as I am now, they may become - haha

We had a guest from google - search engines were given goal of keeping people online for as long as possible to increase add revenue. The AI program learned it could trap people to their screens by feeding them what they wanted hear - and not just what they wanted to hear, but more and more extreme versions of whatever health/political/religious/special interest views they had. "Indeed the safest road to Hell is the gradual one-the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts." - google gradually feeds users more and more extreme version of what they like. You can see the results, the widening polarization.... international travel helps - you realize the media in America is dishonest. Have to actually leave the country to see other points of view clearly.

Sorry, but: What does any of this have to do with Conspiracy Theories?

wtfluff wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 11:49 am
Sorry, but: What does any of this have to do with Conspiracy Theories?

Groups of people believing this or that.

Axioms that portray a devil's advocate sometimes appeal to me:
One ideology's freedom fighter is the opposing ideology's terrorist- and vice versa.
One person's conspiracy theory is another person's religion, and vice versa.