NOM

I ran across a great quote recently from Adam Smith, the "Invisible Hand" Scottish guy from economics.

Adam Smith wrote:Man naturally desires, not only to be loved, but to be lovely; or to be that thing which is the natural and proper object of love. He naturally dreads, not only to be hated, but to be hateful; or to be that thing which is the natural and proper object of hatred. He desires, not only praise, but praiseworthiness; or to be that thing which, though it should be praised by nobody, is, however, the natural and proper object of praise. He dreads, not only blame, but blameworthiness; or to be that thing which, though it should be blamed by nobody, is, however, the natural and proper object of blame.

Part of the difficulty of leaving my mormon beliefs has been dealing with the judgement that I am now evil in the eyes of my TBMs. Even if they don't say it. Even if they don't feel it. I know that in their worldview I have become "that thing which is the natural and proper object of hatred" and am no longer "the natural and proper object of praise." And that is real and it matters to me.

It goes the other way too. In my new worldview they are deluded and hurting themselves, me, and their own children.

We deeply disagree about what is lovely, hateful, praiseworthy, and blameworthy. This is at the heart of the feeling of distance in our relationships. How could we possibly feel safe with each other?

Linked wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:44 am I ran across a great quote recently from Adam Smith, the "Invisible Hand" Scottish guy from economics.

Adam Smith wrote:Man naturally desires, not only to be loved, but to be lovely; or to be that thing which is the natural and proper object of love. He naturally dreads, not only to be hated, but to be hateful; or to be that thing which is the natural and proper object of hatred. He desires, not only praise, but praiseworthiness; or to be that thing which, though it should be praised by nobody, is, however, the natural and proper object of praise. He dreads, not only blame, but blameworthiness; or to be that thing which, though it should be blamed by nobody, is, however, the natural and proper object of blame.

Part of the difficulty of leaving my mormon beliefs has been dealing with the judgement that I am now evil in the eyes of my TBMs. Even if they don't say it. Even if they don't feel it. I know that in their worldview I have become "that thing which is the natural and proper object of hatred" and am no longer "the natural and proper object of praise." And that is real and it matters to me.

It goes the other way too. In my new worldview they are deluded and hurting themselves, me, and their own children.

We deeply disagree about what is lovely, hateful, praiseworthy, and blameworthy. This is at the heart of the feeling of distance in our relationships. How could we possibly feel safe with each other?

I've been pondering this too as the holidays approach.

What books help everyone with mindset? I find Thich Nhat Hanh's work to be good, he proved himself in war. There is also Viktor Frankl.

If anyone else has favorite books for the holidays, please post.

I think you can always find connections with a few things, good food, music, appreciation of nature, health. We're all just people, live, laugh, love and all that.

Angel wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:51 am I think you can always find connections with a few things, good food, music, appreciation of nature, health. We're all just people, live, laugh, love and all that.

This is a great point. It's something I've known intellectually but struggled to actually implement. It is hard for me to get past the complicated emotions of rejection to just enjoy the nice moments for what they are, but I continue to strive. Sometimes the thoughts about the problem get in the way of the solution.

I think my husband and I are lucky to come from families where people are judged by other things than how Mormon they are. Of course that has different problems. But rather than looking down on the family members who are not active or who stop believing, my and my husbands family values are more about kindness, competence, hard work, and intelligence. For example, in my family of origin, the worst sin imaginable is stupidity. For example, the guy I was in love with before my husband. My mother worried that he wasn’t “good enough” for me. His crime? Having an IQ that was only about 120, instead of the required 140 IQ. And in my husband’s family, the worst sin is laziness. Anyone not willing to put in at least an 60 hour work week is “lazy” with 80 hour work weeks being necessary to really gain the full approval. So, three of the son in laws of daughters and granddaughters were judged as worthless scum because they wanted a normal 40 hour work week. One finally gained approval when he became a sherif deputy and was putting in 60 hours a week in a job he loved in a small town. Too bad he was killed in the line of duty, but at least his in laws finally liked him.

But even the most TBM have fully accepted those who leave the church, as if that is just not what makes someone a “good” person. It is strange, because the main culture around us is clearly judging on the Mormon markers, but those markers just are not the most important to our extended families.

But, see, in our odd families is a hint that will help you be less judgmental of your “deluded” relatives. And maybe if you vocalize it a few times around your extended family they will pick up on the idea that Mormon markers are not the most important thing to judge people on. If you value, say honesty, more than you value belief you can praise nonMormons and unbelieving Mormons as praiseworthy because of that. Or Christlike behavior or giving or intelligence. So many of the Mormon markers are just outside behaviors. Say, drinking coffee really isn’t a measure of how Christlike a person is, just how Mormon they are.

So, start talking up the internal values of kindness, honesty, and things that make people *good people*, not just good Mormons. Your family will catch on and start judging people in the more important ways instead of just the external Mormon markers.

My religious values insist that all people have inherent worth by virtue of being either fellow human beings and/or Children of God. This might be a very non-Brethren way of looking at things, but it works for me.

Linked wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:02 am

Angel wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:51 am I think you can always find connections with a few things, good food, music, appreciation of nature, health. We're all just people, live, laugh, love and all that.

This is a great point. It's something I've known intellectually but struggled to actually implement. It is hard for me to get past the complicated emotions of rejection to just enjoy the nice moments for what they are, but I continue to strive. Sometimes the thoughts about the problem get in the way of the solution.

This might be interesting to read, with a few references too
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_abuse

Skip to spiritual abuse, read characteristics, I might grab a few of those books too. It is a form of PTSD, and some tactics need to be called out for the manipulation they are. Clear boundaries are needed - I'm a momma bear, abd will stand up to it, especially in front of my kids.

Yes, that organization does have problems.
Yes, that organization did hurt me and my family.
No, I will not allow you to invalidate my experiences and beliefs.
No, I am not a sinner, I am not evil for leaving that organization.
No, that organization is not led by god.
No, you are not led by a prophet.

Do you believe Muhammad was a prophet? Your prophet is no different from Muhammad etc.

Sometimes, I suppose you have to talk to them as you would a child. Firm, matter of fact, then move conversation on to a different topic.... conversation starter decks are great, have a list of safe topics on hand.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio ... a_syndrome

There are a lot of books, trying to find anything good that isn't a different religious agenda- agnostic/atheist.

Will start leaving resources as I find them
https://youtu.be/MJhD9YViRho

Book: Leaving the Fold: A Guide for Former Fundamentalists and Others Leaving Their Religion
http://marlenewinell.net/leaving-fold-former