NOM

I need help trying to figure out when church tithing went from 4 to 10 percent?? And now that the church is out of financial trouble has anyone ever pushed the idea of going back to 4% ? After all with billions in the bank and other financial assets why charge your average member 10% especially when you ask them to clean your toilets !!!!! Just sayin...

Short answer: it's a scam. I think religions could be wonderful things if they actually existed for the benefit of the members, especially those who would be most deserving of Jesus' compassion. But they don't.

Additional question: Tithing is said to be paid on your increase. If I work for a company that pays me $100,000 for my work, and on my part I have committed my time, fuel costs, many years of education, professional expertise….where is the increase? There is no increase as I have contributed to my company the $100,000 I have been paid.

I'm on the 0% tithing plan. Great plan. Highly recommend.

4%??? I've never heard of this before I don't think. I'd like to learn more about the history of that. Just goes to show that you learn something new everyday on NOM!

I've never heard of 4% tithing, but the original 'revelation' on tithing says to pay 10% of your interest annually. The modern church has interpreted that to maximum effect as meaning 10% of your income, with nuanced Mormons quibbling over whether it's your gross or net income; either way it's a ton more than the original revelation intended. But originally it meant 10% of what you would earn in interest if you invested your property. Here's an interesting article about it, which includes a link to the church's official history essay on the subject.

EDIT: Oh yes and if you haven't come across it before, Rock Waterman's essay on tithing is required reading on the subject.

sparky wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:18 am I've never heard of 4% tithing, but the original 'revelation' on tithing says to pay 10% of your interest annually. The modern church has interpreted that to maximum effect as meaning 10% of your income, with nuanced Mormons quibbling over whether it's your gross or net income; either way it's a ton more than the original revelation intended. But originally it meant 10% of what you would earn in interest if you invested your property. Here's an interesting article about it, which includes a link to the church's official history essay on the subject.

EDIT: Oh yes and if you haven't come across it before, Rock Waterman's essay on tithing is required reading on the subject.

This was my understanding as well. I learned so much from Rock Waterman and he paid the price for spilling the beans on tithing.

The church has deliberately misled members about the original definition of tithing. Among other distortions, is the famous Lorenzo Snow quote that is ellipsized to the point that it changes the entire meaning of the quote.

Here is the LDS Church quote of Lorenzo Snow:

"I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child … shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing."

Here is the full quote without the ellipsis:

"I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing."

stealthbishop wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:53 am Among other distortions, is the famous Lorenzo Snow quote that is ellipsized to the point that it changes the entire meaning of the quote.

Here is the LDS Church quote of Lorenzo Snow:

"I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child … shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing."

Here is the full quote without the ellipsis:

"I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing."

The problem with that phrase they removed is that it bestows agency on the members. They get to decide whether or not they "have means." Nah, Mormon God's way is to have a clear, sweeping commandment that applies to everyone regardless of their circumstances.

sparky wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:36 am

stealthbishop wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:53 am Among other distortions, is the famous Lorenzo Snow quote that is ellipsized to the point that it changes the entire meaning of the quote.

Here is the LDS Church quote of Lorenzo Snow:

"I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child … shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing."

Here is the full quote without the ellipsis:

"I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing."

The problem with that phrase they removed is that it bestows agency on the members. They get to decide whether or not they "have means." Nah, Mormon God's way is to have a clear, sweeping commandment that applies to everyone regardless of their circumstances.

Agreed. It's also what institutions favor, especially at the time this was changed. The industrial revolution. Mass production. Cookie Cutter. One size fits all. Good for some things but toxic for other things.

MoPag wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 9:33 pm I'm on the 0% tithing plan. Great plan. Highly recommend.

I like this over Rock Waterman’s words!

sparky wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:18 am Oh yes and if you haven't come across it before, Rock Waterman's essay on tithing is required reading on the subject.

From Rock Waterman:

Two weeks after that announcement, the Twelve voted to exempt themselves from any obligation to pay tithing at all, not even a tiny bit on their surplus.

MoPag wrote:I'm on the 0% tithing plan. Great plan. Highly recommend.

Sounds like you might be Apostle material.

MoPag wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 9:33 pm I'm on the 0% tithing plan. Great plan. Highly recommend.

I'm also on the 0% plan. Still waiting for the SP to notice and kick me out err... release me from my calling.

That said, we have committed substantial $ to helping certain individuals and families in our ward/area directly. So I feel okay with our charitable donations.

Wow I think 0% sounds like a better idea !!

I can definitely bear my testimony that I know with every fiber of my being that Ms. Stealth and I have been blessed by paying 0% tithing. But I am glad I came across Rock Waterman's essay and during my faith transition discovered the original definition of tithing in the church and that it was changed. That also was a blessing or fortunate.

I am also currently on the 0% plan. I think it would be beneficial for the church to ask members to donate 10% of their increase to reputable charities. That is a tithing that I would support. Of course, it would take control of the members' money from the leaders. They won't like that. However, it would be a better look for such a wealthy organization.

stealthbishop wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:53 am Among other distortions, is the famous Lorenzo Snow quote that is ellipsized to the point that it changes the entire meaning of the quote.

Here is the LDS Church quote of Lorenzo Snow:

"I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child … shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing."

Here is the full quote without the ellipsis:

"I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing."

Stealth, do you have a reference for this?

I don't know about all the references the church has used to the Lorenzo Snow quote but the ellipsized quote appears in the Teachings of the Presidents of the Church, Lorenzo Snow manual.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng

The quote apparently comes from the Seventieth Semi-Annual Conference (1899).

https://archive.org/details/conferencer ... ew=theater

From where I sit, 4% is still highway robbery.

MoPag wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 9:33 pm I'm on the 0% tithing plan. Great plan. Highly recommend.

Can confirm. Best plan ever!

+1 on the 0% plan.

In terms of changing the meaning of tithing, take a look at this Joseph Smith Translation scripture in the Old Testament:

Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

JST, Genesis 14:39


If you research "tithing" in the topical guide (study help included with church scriptures), you'll find that the "tithing" section includes a reference to that same chapter, Genesis 14:20:

And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

What is more interesting is that you won't find in the topical guide a reference to JST, Genesis 14:39. I'm sure it was just an oversight by the correlation committee.