NOM

Sometimes I get frustrated with myself when I let stupid things said by church leaders and members get under my skin, or when I feel anxious by potential conflicts with believers. Occasionally, I just plain lose my sh!t over ridiculous, pretend-authority behavior. I had one of those this morning thinking about how absolutely asinine it is for this organization to teach that they are the only worthy arbitrators of the sacred one-man-one-woman marriage, considering their history. Also, that they continue to teach that they are the only church that teaches that families can be together after death, and worse, that only though THEM can families be together, when in reality their mission seems to be to create a scenario that is guaranteed to demolish most peoples' families.

Here's another one. I decided to listen to Easter Sacrament Meeting this year. We have a great choir. My neighbor, a retired BYU professor, was the main speaker. He gave a really nice talk about redemption, and told the resurrection story from a very Mormon, but uplifting point of view. But then he had to go and ruin it by adding, "and if you don't believe this, then there is nothing for you but an eternity of darkness and misery. You will be no different than the angels of Satan." This guy wrote a book on the history of creativity, and he can't exercise just a tiny bit of creativity to consider some other options?

But then I remind myself that I was at the bottom of a hole that I had been digging for myself for 58 years, and I have only been trying to dig my way back out for the 6 years since then. I think I'm 2/3 of the way out, so I've actually covered almost 40 years worth of digging. I should be back on level ground in about 3 more years at that rate!

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:38 am But then he had to go and ruin it by adding, "and if you don't believe this, then there is nothing for you but an eternity of darkness and misery. You will be no different than the angels of Satan."

He's not communicating reality, he's projecting his deepest fears onto others. He's really saying, "and if I don't believe this, then there is nothing for me but an eternity of darkness and misery. I will be no different than the angels of Satan."

Framing it that way makes me feel pity for people that say things like that. I find that feeling pity for people that say things like that is preferable to the heat-of-the-moment feelings that pity replaced.

I definitely feel this even though it's not nearly as bad as it was a few years ago.

But I do get really frustrated when I hear members make claims to attack others (politics or religion) when those exact lines of thought will kill their own beliefs.

I also take it personally when I hear leaders tell members how those who leave and talk about it are bad people or that you can't raise a kid properly without the church because those impact me more directly... and both happen.

nibbler wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:52 am He's not communicating reality, he's projecting his deepest fears onto others. He's really saying, "and if I don't believe this, then there is nothing for me but an eternity of darkness and misery. I will be no different than the angels of Satan."

Framing it that way makes me feel pity for people that say things like that. I find that feeling pity for people that say things like that is preferable to the heat-of-the-moment feelings that pity replaced.

I agree with this 1000%. It goes along with my point above to say you can't raise a kid without the 'gospel,' because it's more a reflection of people that is a fear that without the rigid rules of the church it then falls on us to make the right choices and be responsible for those choices. It's a lot easier to put that on something else so you feel like it's out of your hands.

nibbler wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:52 am He's not communicating reality, he's projecting his deepest fears onto others. He's really saying, "and if I don't believe this, then there is nothing for me but an eternity of darkness and misery. I will be no different than the angels of Satan."

Framing it that way makes me feel pity for people that say things like that. I find that feeling pity for people that say things like that is preferable to the heat-of-the-moment feelings that pity replaced.

Brilliant observation! I need to have this tattooed on the insides of my eyelids.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:38 am But then he had to go and ruin it by adding, "and if you don't believe this, then there is nothing for you but an eternity of darkness and misery. You will be no different than the angels of Satan."

The quality of mercy sounds strained with that professor. Maybe he was having a bad day when he wrote it.

I feel your pain.

I recently sat through a concert that had some narration. “We are in a literal war with Satan. Although I can’t pick up a literal weapon to fight with, I can do my best to not allow him into my life by listening to good music.”

Literal war you say? Whilst not able to fight back with literal weapons? Sure that makes sense.

I think thou dost participate too much.

I’m 97% out of the hole but still can’t climb out all the way.

I've been digging for 12 years now. My shelf broke in 2010, Although it was cracked long before that.
I can accept that the average Joe on the streets of the MorCor can believe in the Church. I can accept that the average GA may think they're helping save the world. I understand how denial and confirmation bias work. But things like Sam Young's ex'ing, or Holland's "Muskets" talk, or Nelson's "Lazy Learners" talk still piss my off.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:44 pm I recently sat through a concert that had some narration. “We are in a literal war with Satan. Although I can’t pick up a literal weapon to fight with, I can do my best to not allow him into my life by listening to good music.”

Literal war you say? Whilst not able to fight back with literal weapons? Sure that makes sense.

That reminds me of a couple more cringe moments.

A speaker in my ward said, "have you ever noticed how your fingers naturally curl when your hands are at rest? God designed them that way for a purpose. It turns out that they curl to just the right shape to hold a sword. That's a reminder that we are always at war and we must always be ready to engage in battle with the enemies of the church."

He could just have easily said our fingers curl way to hold the hand of someone who needs love and acceptance.

Here's another. We went to a beautiful interfaith Christmas choir concert. About 6 or 8 local churches were represented and they were kind enough to include an LDS choir. Each choir began their program by talking about Jesus and the symbolism of Christmas. The Mormon representative's message was. We are superior to all of you because "we believe in a living Jesus, not a dead one hanging on a cross." I felt so ashamed.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:16 am Here's another. We went to a beautiful interfaith Christmas choir concert. About 6 or 8 local churches were represented and they were kind enough to include an LDS choir. Each choir began their program by talking about Jesus and the symbolism of Christmas. The Mormon representative's message was. We are superior to all of you because "we believe in a living Jesus, not a dead one hanging on a cross." I felt so ashamed.

One of the easiest things I gave up when I left was, the "I'm right and you're wrong" spirit. But not completely as anyone can see with my arrogance. One of the things we struggle with is the difference between the "Kingdom of Heaven" and our role in society. If you imagine the Kingdom of God is within and certain things have higher authority, it makes more sense.

Consciousness is God, is incorruptible. But within that structure is a "love" that is the highest authority. It will overcome everything. That doesn't mean YOU are the highest authority, but there is a HIGHEST authority within you.

Mormons struggle with the "only one" thing, but it has its purpose.

I think this is a very serious core issue for many of us who leave or distance ourselves from the church. I call it "tribal disentanglement" and it is really difficult and gut wrenching for so many of us especially for a high demand religion that is so culturally deep. The hole is deep. It can take a long time.

Our tribal natures make it so we are all sensitive to signs of rejection from other human beings. That's why when it's even people we don't like or don't care much about we can still get signals deep in our biology that can cause problems. For our early ancestors, the worst thing that could happen to us other than being killed directly was tribal rejection and subsequent banishment which was also basically a death sentence. When non-human primates are separated from their tribe they can die within six days! We have that woven into our nervous systems whether we realize it or not.

I still feel it too Hagoth when these stupid things are said. It can also be said that that they (orthodox LDS) also feel it "from the world" or from critical and mocking ex-Mormons. All we can do is accept these instincts that we all have but in our behaviors try as best we can to live our highest values. I'm grateful for this NOM tribe that helps me and all of us to get the support we need to do that.

I'm with you 100%. My wife and I are in this hole too and trying to get out as best we can.

stealthbishop wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:50 am I'm with you 100%. My wife and I are in this hole too and trying to get out as best we can.

Funny how deep you can get before the treasure slips away into the earth!

I dunno...Let's not dismiss this whole angel of Satan thing. It could be a pretty sweet gig. Better than sad Mormon heaven anyway!

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:08 pm

stealthbishop wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:50 am I'm with you 100%. My wife and I are in this hole too and trying to get out as best we can.

Funny how deep you can get before the treasure slips away into the earth!

Nicely played!

Yes I have issues with this as well I've been digging myself out since 2014 but am only a third of the way to level ground. I can't believe people in the church don't get that by saying " This is the only true church on the face of the earth" It's very offensive in that you are saying another's religion is false !!! It really pisses me off to hear that !!!! The other thing that bugs me is the message of we are superior in every way either spoken or implied.

Phrasing!

Are we still doing that?

Here's another one. I decided to listen to Easter Sacrament Meeting this year. We have a great choir. My neighbor, a retired BYU professor, was the main speaker. He gave a really nice talk about redemption, and told the resurrection story from a very Mormon, but uplifting point of view. But then he had to go and ruin it by adding, "and if you don't believe this, then there is nothing for you but an eternity of darkness and misery. You will be no different than the angels of Satan." This guy wrote a book on the history of creativity, and he can't exercise just a tiny bit of creativity to consider some other options?

I hear you ! I have listened to people who I thought were pretty admirable, well-grounded, and good role models, only to have them suddenly go off like this, just out of the blue. One moment, they are giving an uplifting talk, and the next moment they are saying that that only true believers in this faith will ever see their children in the eternities, and everyone else is just lost. It's so cringe-inducing, because they suddenly become very dogmatic,seemingly out of nowhere. That is why, sadly, I've had to give up ever trusting or admiring any TBM to be a role model. Deep inside them, they seem to have a hidden darkness of the soul that suddenly emerges and catches me unaware. - Wndr