NOM

I previously wrote about how my wife seems to be coming around a bit (see link)viewtopic.php?f=3&t=511&p=5039#p5039, but things have turned around again unfortunately.

Yesterday I saw that The Book of Mormon musical is coming to SLC and I have wanted to see it since before my disaffection, so I got excited and made some plans to go. I told my wife and she was pissed. She said I am mocking something dear to her. I asked her if she even knows what it's about. She said not really, just making fun of missionaries. I said it's not just anti-mormon drivle, that there is more to it. I mentioned a couple of the themes, but I was worked up so they probably weren't very convincing. She wouldn't eat dinner with the family and cried for 2 hours. And we haven't spoken much since then. Crap.

And she put up a tracking chart for the Stake Goals mentioned here:viewtopic.php?f=4&t=512&p=4912#p4912, so she can feel guilty for going on camping trips with our family and missing sacrament meeting. The Stake was kind enough to provide the tracker. I can't complain too much, it's something I would have done as a TBM too, but it's really annoying from this side of the fence.

Oh the joy if doing the disaffection dance. You take one step forward, she takes two steps back.

It sounds like it's time to show empathy. Sit with her and let her know you understand her position and that your not openly mocking her beliefs but more interested in watching a silly musical that exploits the nuances of Mormonism. If we can't laugh at ourselves, than how strong are we? Say your peace than let her speak freely while you hold her. She needs to feel safe and know that she's allowed to have her faith.

Let things simmer for a week or two and then one day make the tracker disappear.

One option would be to back track even further than RR is recommending and acknowledge that you understand she is upset because she feels that you are mocking her inner most self. That would make anyone feel unloved. Once you convince her that you want to understand more about how she feels and why and she if feeling safe in sharing, ask if this is all about the musical or if there is anything else that you have done to make her feel this way. Usually this strong of a reaction is not based on one musical that she doesn't know much about. So, get her talking. Listen to her first before arguing that the musical is not mocking Mormons. Once you are sure this is all or mostly about the musical, then remember it isn't about the musical, but about you respecting her feelings. So, if the only trigger to her feelings is you wanting to see the musical, then offer to explore what it is really about together and if she still feels it mocks Mormons, that you won't go see it. She has to know that her feelings are most important to you. More important than the musical and more than getting your own way. You might even want to start the conversation with the idea that if she feels that the musical mocks Mormons, that you won't go.

See, when she is suffering from having her husband stop believing is a very bad time for her to be capable of seeing the humor in Mormon quirks. She is in too much pain to laugh at herself and other Mormons right now. It isn't a matter just being able to laugh at oneself right now. It is a matter of mourning over her husband's change of belief. Most likely if you had not stopped believing, then she would have a sense of humor about the stupid quirks of Mormons and be able to laugh at the culture she loves. But she is in mourning. And just like at the funeral I was at yesterday, the funny things trigger the biggest outburst of crying.

alas wrote:One option would be to back track even further than RR is recommending and acknowledge that you understand she is upset because she feels that you are mocking her inner most self. That would make anyone feel unloved. Once you convince her that you want to understand more about how she feels and why and she if feeling safe in sharing, ask if this is all about the musical or if there is anything else that you have done to make her feel this way. Usually this strong of a reaction is not based on one musical that she doesn't know much about. So, get her talking. Listen to her first before arguing that the musical is not mocking Mormons. Once you are sure this is all or mostly about the musical, then remember it isn't about the musical, but about you respecting her feelings. So, if the only trigger to her feelings is you wanting to see the musical, then offer to explore what it is really about together and if she still feels it mocks Mormons, that you won't go see it. She has to know that her feelings are most important to you. More important than the musical and more than getting your own way. You might even want to start the conversation with the idea that if she feels that the musical mocks Mormons, that you won't go.

See, when she is suffering from having her husband stop believing is a very bad time for her to be capable of seeing the humor in Mormon quirks. She is in too much pain to laugh at herself and other Mormons right now. It isn't a matter just being able to laugh at oneself right now. It is a matter of mourning over her husband's change of belief. Most likely if you had not stopped believing, then she would have a sense of humor about the stupid quirks of Mormons and be able to laugh at the culture she loves. But she is in mourning. And just like at the funeral I was at yesterday, the funny things trigger the biggest outburst of crying.

You are probably right. But there are a couple of issues with this approach.

My wife HATES communicating. I have tried for our entire marriage to get her to open up and share herself with me, but she won't do it. It has become a joke, anytime I ask questions to understand her she says, "Are we done with 20 questions now?" I tell her I want to know her better, and she says I already know everything about her. I suspect she doesn't really know herself that well, or hasn't nailed it down to be easily communicated, so it's hard to share what you don't really know.

I am having a hard time accepting that I should not go because it hurts her. I feel like I have been a decent husband and father and I am still angry that the church stole so much of my time, money, and self from me. So I want to get my self back, and that is why I want to see the musical; it is something that I enjoy from deep within my self. My wife has had 2 years to process this and she seems to be refusing to do it, at some point that's her problem and she needs to get over it. I feel like we've reached that point with what I choose to go see. Maybe not for WoW stuff or church attendance, but yes for a musical on a Wednesday night that pokes fun at the quirks of mormonism. I suppose this confirms her concerns that I think the church, and by extension she, has quirks worth making fun of. But that should not be a surprise; we all have funny quirks...

I suppose the short of it is that her feelings are not the most important thing to me. They are one of many important things to me, and in this case I feel that her feelings are unjustified and therefore not as important as me finding my self.

I appreciate your response and would like to hear your thoughts on mine if you are willing.

You have some of the same issues that my DH and I struggled with, with her not being very willing to share her feelings. She probably has some of the same reasons and some different ones, so what worked for us may not work for you.

But here goes. Long term thoughts:

Like you suspect with your wife, I could not share a lot of feelings because I didn't know my feelings. I had to work out my feelings with anybody but my husband, because some times it just wasn't safe to try to work through them with him. He of course was quite offended that I talked to others about feelings I would not share with him and didn't get this idea you see in your wife that I couldn't share what I didn't know and had to learn how I felt in a safe place before sharing with him. But see, if I blow it with a friend and offend them, it isn't as big of a loss as blowing it with him and ruining that relationship. He had a t.e.r.r.i.b.l.e time giving me space to figure out my feelings and a terrible habit of pushing me for how I felt. The more pressure he applied, the more I clammed up. That was how things worked for the first ten to fifteen years of our marriage. Then I went back to school and majored in both psychology and social work, and eventually got a Master's degree in social work. That changed things for us

There are usually half baked ideas and feelings inside of us. Therapists have to learn to be the kind of listener who can have people bounce theses ideas around and help sort them. Well, here is where my being trained as a social worker helped. I learned these listening skills and would use them to understand him better, and he sort of picked them up from me.

But you can get a good book on listening skills and communication skills. Suggest that the two of you go through it together, because you are having a difficult time understanding her sometimes and you think this might help and that she can help you by reading and discussing the book with you. Try not to make it sound like she has a problem you are trying to fix or she won't cooperate because she will feel threatened. But make it about her helping you with your communication skills. You want the book to cover things such as reflective listening and "I statements".

Short term suggestions: (if this was me, but it isn't, so your feedback would be needed on how this sounds and if you think this approach would work

Tell her you want to talk to her and set a time that is a good discussion time. (when both are not too tired, distracted by other things and so on.) Then start by saying that you know you upset her and you are sorry. (You can be sorry she is upset even if you don't feel it is your fault. I don't feel it is your fault, but she needs to know that you are bothered by her upset, that you care she is upset and recognize she is upset over something about you.) When the discussion time arrives, Then tell her how you feel about this. That her feelings are important to you, but not so important that you don't still want to see the musical. Tell her very gently that you feel that her feelings are unjustified because you think of it as laughing at *yourself as a Mormon*(culturally) and that there is a difference between laughing at the funny quirks in a culture you share and laughing at sacred things, like her deeply held beliefs. If this doesn't lead into a good discussion, then hand her the problem. Ask how she thinks the two of you can work this out. Make her offer a suggestion or compromise or a fair way of at least discussing or deciding the issue with no hard feelings. You can even say that you feel that HER feelings should not dictate your behavior on something like this, because until she sees the musical, she doesn't know if it is mocking Mormons, or Mormons laughing at their own culture. (Wasn't it written by some exMormons?) Maybe the answer is to for the two of you to look into more info on exactly what the musical is all about, so that she can feel safe in letting you see it. My understanding is that it is fairly respectful of the beliefs, but mocks culture. But then I have not seen it either. Most importantly, she needs to feel that you are not mocking her, but laughing at a culture you still feel part of, even if you no longer believe the church is what it claims. Laughing at something as an insider rather than an outsider are different, and she needs to see you as still mostly an insider on the culture at least and feel that it is the culture you are laughing at, and can she be OK with it on that level?

Thanks for your thoughts Alas, I will see if I can find a good communication book to go through together. I would have mixed feelings if she went somewhere else to figure out her feelings, but the sadness that she wasn't able to open up to me would be dwarfed with the joy that she is finding herself. Unfortunately she has nowhere to figure her feelings out. She is not very interested in finding friends, and any friendships she has developed have ended when her friends inevitably move away. She isn't close like that with her family. Hopefully we can figure something out. Maybe I can develop the ability to listen and help her sort her half baked ideas, but like you say it is difficult to have those kinds of discussions with your spouse.

alas wrote:Short term suggestions: (if this was me, but it isn't, so your feedback would be needed on how this sounds and if you think this approach would work

Tell her you want to talk to her and set a time that is a good discussion time. (when both are not too tired, distracted by other things and so on.) Then start by saying that you know you upset her and you are sorry. (You can be sorry she is upset even if you don't feel it is your fault. I don't feel it is your fault, but she needs to know that you are bothered by her upset, that you care she is upset and recognize she is upset over something about you.) When the discussion time arrives, Then tell her how you feel about this. That her feelings are important to you, but not so important that you don't still want to see the musical. Tell her very gently that you feel that her feelings are unjustified because you think of it as laughing at *yourself as a Mormon*(culturally) and that there is a difference between laughing at the funny quirks in a culture you share and laughing at sacred things, like her deeply held beliefs. If this doesn't lead into a good discussion, then hand her the problem. Ask how she thinks the two of you can work this out. Make her offer a suggestion or compromise or a fair way of at least discussing or deciding the issue with no hard feelings. You can even say that you feel that HER feelings should not dictate your behavior on something like this, because until she sees the musical, she doesn't know if it is mocking Mormons, or Mormons laughing at their own culture. (Wasn't it written by some exMormons?) Maybe the answer is to for the two of you to look into more info on exactly what the musical is all about, so that she can feel safe in letting you see it. My understanding is that it is fairly respectful of the beliefs, but mocks culture. But then I have not seen it either. Most importantly, she needs to feel that you are not mocking her, but laughing at a culture you still feel part of, even if you no longer believe the church is what it claims. Laughing at something as an insider rather than an outsider are different, and she needs to see you as still mostly an insider on the culture at least and feel that it is the culture you are laughing at, and can she be OK with it on that level?

This would be ideal. I will see what I can do.

Red Ryder wrote:Oh the joy if doing the disaffection dance. You take one step forward, she takes two steps back.

It sounds like it's time to show empathy. Sit with her and let her know you understand her position and that your not openly mocking her beliefs but more interested in watching a silly musical that exploits the nuances of Mormonism. If we can't laugh at ourselves, than how strong are we? Say your peace than let her speak freely while you hold her. She needs to feel safe and know that she's allowed to have her faith.

Let things simmer for a week or two and then one day make the tracker disappear.

Thanks RR, I need to do a better job of vocalizing that she can have her faith. I do wish she would join me on my journey though. And she wishes I would rejoin her. It is a beautiful thing when it is put out there, we love each other and want the other to join us. I'll try to be more empathetic, it is hard not to get defensive in the moment.

Linked wrote:I suppose the short of it is that her feelings are not the most important thing to me. They are one of many important things to me, and in this case I feel that her feelings are unjustified and therefore not as important as me finding my self.

alas said it so much better than I can, but I’ll just add this.

I’m a woman who has always had difficulty expressing my emotions. When I went to a therapist a few years back, it was really difficult. The therapist had a difficult time pulling things from me because I refused to discuss my emotions. I think this comes from a few different things and all of this leads to being very emotionally distant with others.

• I’m naturally quiet and secretive
• I like to know for sure before I say anything - I need time to think things through, and by then, the emotion has usually passed
• I’ve been told my entire life that what I felt wasn’t okay (from both my family and the church)

Perhaps the best thing about therapy, along with just having a non-judgmental ear to talk to, is that I learned feelings are valid. How a person acts on those feelings may not be right, but having the feelings is. It is okay to feel a certain way. Suppressing and refusing to acknowledge feelings shuts people down – it shuts down communication.

That emotions are valid has changed my life. I’m more empathetic towards others and I’m more empathetic toward myself. It has allowed me to dig deeper to find out why I feel a certain way instead of suppressing it or acting in anger. I'm able to process my feelings and communicate better. It’s made me a better mother.

alas wrote:Tell her you want to talk to her and set a time that is a good discussion time. (when both are not too tired, distracted by other things and so on.) Then start by saying that you know you upset her and you are sorry. (You can be sorry she is upset even if you don't feel it is your fault. I don't feel it is your fault, but she needs to know that you are bothered by her upset, that you care she is upset and recognize she is upset over something about you.) When the discussion time arrives, Then tell her how you feel about this. That her feelings are important to you, but not so important that you don't still want to see the musical. Tell her very gently that you feel that her feelings are unjustified because you think of it as laughing at *yourself as a Mormon*(culturally) and that there is a difference between laughing at the funny quirks in a culture you share and laughing at sacred things, like her deeply held beliefs. If this doesn't lead into a good discussion, then hand her the problem. Ask how she thinks the two of you can work this out. Make her offer a suggestion or compromise or a fair way of at least discussing or deciding the issue with no hard feelings. You can even say that you feel that HER feelings should not dictate your behavior on something like this, because until she sees the musical, she doesn't know if it is mocking Mormons, or Mormons laughing at their own culture. (Wasn't it written by some exMormons?) Maybe the answer is to for the two of you to look into more info on exactly what the musical is all about, so that she can feel safe in letting you see it. My understanding is that it is fairly respectful of the beliefs, but mocks culture. But then I have not seen it either. Most importantly, she needs to feel that you are not mocking her, but laughing at a culture you still feel part of, even if you no longer believe the church is what it claims. Laughing at something as an insider rather than an outsider are different, and she needs to see you as still mostly an insider on the culture at least and feel that it is the culture you are laughing at, and can she be OK with it on that level?

I really liked what alas had to say, and I’m going to add this: I don’t know why your wife doesn’t express her feelings, but from my own experience, when I validate the experiences of others, it tends to neutralize the anger/hostility, and communication is more open.

The clearest example I can give is with my kids. If my kid throws a fit because I made a PB&J instead of cheese sandwich, I could tell him to get over it, it doesn’t matter, and to just be happy he got lunch. It's stupid to get upset over a sandwich - that’s the old me. The newer and better mom says something more along the lines of, “I can see you’re upset. I’m sorry you didn’t get the sandwich you wanted. It’s not much fun to have to eat a lunch you didn’t want, is it? How can we make this better next time? How about we have a cheese sandwich tomorrow?” And nine times out of ten, my kid will nod, express his own feelings, and while he’s still not okay with the PB&J, he’ll talk himself down and process his own feelings because he feels I understand and empathize with him. From an adult perspective it seems fairly stupid – it’s just lunch, eat it and move on, but to a kid, it’s a pretty big deal. (To an adult it can be a pretty big deal – how many of us would take it in stride if we went to a restaurant and were given the wrong item?) If I shut him down over the sandwich, why would he expect my understanding or empathy on anything else?

Now, I’m totally on your side here. As the non-believing spouse in a Mormon marriage, I’ll be the first to admit it isn’t easy. But I’m guessing it isn’t easy for the other person either. Validation of her feelings (not actions, her feelings) may go a long way in getting her to open up. I find most of the time, I don't really care if my husband agrees with me, I just want validation that he understands. And not empty words. Genuine understanding and empathy - that he understands where I am coming from, he understands how it hurts, even if he doesn't agree.