NOM

I know I've been circling around this thought a lot lately, and I have even taken a couple of stabs at it in NOM threads, but Brad Wilcox helped me finally bring it into focus.

Brad tells his audiences that what sets us apart from all other churches, and the reason they are all just "playing at church", is that we KNOW that God has a body of flesh and bones.

But do we?

1) It took Joseph 18 years to come to that conclusion. That was not much before he also started filling the universe with infant and toddler Gods.

2) Apparently there's no way of telling a spirit from a body, as illustrated by N.T Steven, Moses, and the Brother of Jared.

3) Joseph himself said that the ONLY way to tell a spirit from a physical being is to shake their hand.

4) Joseph did not shake Elohim's or Jehovah/Jesus' hand. He only claimed to see "personages," like countless other people have done.

But more important than all of that is that no member of the LDS church, all of whom KNOW that their God has a physical body of flesh and bone has actually experienced that body. Not even Joseph Smith. And he is the only person ever (with the possible exception of Steven) who claims to have seen God the Father, a person unique from Jehovah/Jesus.

Here's why this is so important. Most churches claim that God immaterial and fully supernatural. You can have a direct personal experience with your God because he is omnipresent and exists within you. For a Mormon to actually experience their flesh-and-bone God, he would have to visit them in person, shake their hand, embrace them, pat them on the back, whatever.

So, despite arrogant claims of knowing God better than any other theistic believers, Mormons actually come in last place. Not one of them has EVER had a direct personal experience with flesh-and-bone Elohim. Not one. Not even Joseph Smith. Instead they have invented a completely separate entity which bears the plagiarized name of the Holy Ghost to do, you must admit, a very piss-poor imitation of Father Elohim's big, loving hug.

ETA: I just thought of one possible exception. LDS prophets have told us that Mary actually had a physical experience with at least one of Elohim's appendages.

Agreed. I have always found it strange that the first vision story is used as evidence that god has a body of flesh and bone. In none of the several versions is there any physical interaction. Not to mention that even if contact confirmed some material substance, that still would not qualify as evidence of actual "flesh and bone." Maybe he/she/it/they is composed of vinyl stuffed with polyester fluff.

Good thing it is all made up or I would be thoroughly confused.

In the Lectures on Faith by Joseph Smith, the Doctrine part of the original Doctrine and Covenants, Jesus has a physical body, God does not.

dogbite wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 2:54 pm In the Lectures on Faith by Joseph Smith, the Doctrine part of the original Doctrine and Covenants, Jesus has a physical body, God does not.

And the HG isn't even a person! Just Omnipresent God's Spidey sense.

Why is a physical body so important anyway? Jesus created the Earth and/or the Universe before he got his physical body.
The Holy Ghost seems to accomplish a heck of a lot without a physical body.
God and/or Jesus can appear to people as anything they want, for example a burning bush to Moses.
Do we know if Moroni was a physically resurrected being?
Did it matter?
Job 38:7 says all of us, as the Sons of God, shouted for joy at some point in our pre-existence. We can evidently shout without a spiritual body.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:25 am Why is a physical body so important anyway?

I think it was part of polygamy theology. You couldn't have non-stop Celestial sex without a body.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:25 am God and/or Jesus can appear to people as anything they want, for example a burning bush to Moses.

Or as a deer to Martin Harris.

I think the biggest problem with the Mormon God is that he is finite, but also infinite, just like we are. According to Mormon thought we have existed in some manner forever, but we are continually changing, progressing. And oddly, so is God, up to a point. Then God reaches a point where God is perfect and doesn't change. He just adds more changes to other parts of the universe. Which begs the question, when did God stop changing, or will he keep on learning, which I believe is what Brigham Young asserted?
Brigham seems to have believed in God as an exalted alien. Too bad he never really clarified his Adam/God theory.
Anyway, it seems to me the Mormon God is a contradiction. He changed into a burning bush for Moses, and a deer for Martin Harris.
That reminds me of another problem with Mormon God, when and how is Jesus Christ a God. Bruce McConkie didn't think he should be worshiped. He only worshipped Elohim in the name of Jesus Christ. But a lot of ancient prophets worshipped Jesus as Jehovah.
Mormon God is just as contradictory as the Trinity.
I feel some affinity for Orson Pratt's world view (God as an eternal idea), but Brigham Young sure didn't.

I like this- Joseph Smith's most awkward moment...."um...a...I hate to ask this God and God...but can we shake hands? Sorta, kinda need to know that you aren't the...you know...uh...the devil."