NOM

I had a tough Sunday yesterday. I attended Sacrament Meeting with the fam to support DW. I went home for the second hour and on my way out the door I was chatting with a friend in the bishopric when the ward mission leader cornered me to ask if we could have the missionaries over for a lesson and to request names. I pulled out my phone, looked over my calendar, and told him we were busy this week. A simple enough exchange, but the having to say no and feeling like I'm disappointing everyone is hard for me.

An hour later when the family comes home my kids are a bit worked up because they had learned about God sacrificing Jesus and Abraham being told to sacrifice Isaac. I'm not sure how to navigate this kind of thing. I don't want to torpedo DWs beliefs, but my kids expressed some discomfort with the killing; particularly of dad's killing their sons. So I told them I would tell God to pound sand if he ever commanded me to kill them.

Later my tweenage son asked DW and me, "Do we pay tithing?" out of nowhere. DW got a bit defensive to him and said that is a personal question. He asked what she meant, so I said, she means we aren't going to tell you; it's something between a person and Heavenly Father. I felt bad because he should feel safe in asking that question and we should feel safe in teaching him what we do and why, but due to DW's and my conflicting beliefs it makes it a tense question. I added some questions about what he thought about tithing which he answered correctly per the church's view (you are supposed to give 10% of the money you get to the church). I told him that some people think that giving money to charity is a way to pay tithing because it is your way of helping Heavenly Father. I just want to be more open and honest with him, but then he's in on something we are not public about and I won't ask him to keep secrets.

This sort of applied guilt when you haven't done anything wrong shows the toxicity of the church system, teachings, and invasion into the family relationship.

If this is god's plan, god is a prick.

You missed a great opportunity for role playing a ritualistic killing. I would have at least got the kids on the table and grabbed a kitchen knife. Asked them how much faith they had and if they expected God to prevent their death.

Been there before with the spot visits.

I always say no, I’ll get back to you with a better time. Then do nothing.

Regarding tithing, I’ve focused a lot of energy teaching my kids that they can tithe in multiple ways similar to your answer. We can tithe with our time, our attention, our resources, or simply our goodness. That will do.

Linked wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:19 pm Later my tweenage son asked DW and me, "Do we pay tithing?" out of nowhere. DW got a bit defensive to him and said that is a personal question. He asked what she meant, so I said, she means we aren't going to tell you; it's something between a person and Heavenly Father. I felt bad because he should feel safe in asking that question and we should feel safe in teaching him what we do and why, but due to DW's and my conflicting beliefs it makes it a tense question. I added some questions about what he thought about tithing which he answered correctly per the church's view (you are supposed to give 10% of the money you get to the church). I told him that some people think that giving money to charity is a way to pay tithing because it is your way of helping Heavenly Father. I just want to be more open and honest with him, but then he's in on something we are not public about and I won't ask him to keep secrets.

I'm late to this thread, but I'm sorry for your rough Sunday.

I relate to this conversation quite a bit. I try to be honest with our kids when the ask me about polygamy or nonsensical scripture stories. But I have to tread a fine line with DW listening in. Conversations about tithing do not go well with DW. I've always handled pretty much 100% of our finances, so we've reached a point where she doesn't ask and I don't bring it up. She still makes the kids pay tithing on money they get, but even those discussion can get dicey. Its hard to be fully open with kiddos when that honesty places them in a position to have to be guarded in their own conversations with their friends, cousins, grandparents, etc.

I could see one of my kids happily telling their primary class that the bishop doesn't actually believe the BoM to be true or historical in any way. That could make for an interesting day...

Every time I read stuff you post, Linked, I must admit I thank my lucky stars that my kids were almost adults by the time I figured out what the church was about. That would be so hard to navigate and negotiate these issues with a believing spouse, and the often confused messages the kiddos get. I'm sure it was a tough Sunday.

Secrets are hard to deal with too. Sis M comes from a Mormon royalty family background, where all the problems are buried and skeletons are nailed into the closet, until they come out screaming. I'm the exact opposite, I'm an open book. So while my kids don't know the full extent of how I'm done with the church despite my "activity" and temple recommend, they know I'm pretty much mentally out. We talk about it, they know they can come to me when they have concerns, which they all have done. I'm convinced that at least two of my kids are going to bail at some point, even though they are pretty "active" themselves. The challenge for Sis M is, they have not gone to her with problems, because they feel judged when they do. And she has tried to stop these conversations, because she doesn't want them to "get out," not unlike your spouse. Now to her credit, Sis M is getting better at this, she's not stupid and can see what's going on and cares deeply about her relationships with her kids. So she doesn't say things like "that's personal" to them anymore, she's more willing to talk it out. So there is hope for Sis. Linked too.

I guess what I'm saying is that even with younger children, your restraint and gentle truth telling, that you did this Sunday, rather than dumping on them all the truths you have figured out from tithing to church history, will be of more benefit in maintaining relationships than keeping secrets will. How you dealt with the situation this Sunday, I'm convinced, will eventually win the day. So it might have been tough, but I think you handled it perfectly. Now that's my experience, so take it for what that's worth.

Good luck buddy, hang in there!

But it's not a cult, right?

Thank you all for the support! Sometimes I feel stressed out and I can't put my finger on why, then Sunday rolls around and I remember.

dogbite wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:56 pm This sort of applied guilt when you haven't done anything wrong shows the toxicity of the church system, teachings, and invasion into the family relationship.

If this is god's plan, god is a prick.

Totally. Part of it is me, I'm an anxious people-pleaser so I'm prone to feeling guilty for everything anyway. But there is no question that the way the church is setup lays the guilt on thick all the time, including guilt for feeling guilty.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:29 pm You missed a great opportunity for role playing a ritualistic killing. I would have at least got the kids on the table and grabbed a kitchen knife. Asked them how much faith they had and if they expected God to prevent their death.

Been there before with the spot visits.

I always say no, I’ll get back to you with a better time. Then do nothing.

Regarding tithing, I’ve focused a lot of energy teaching my kids that they can tithe in multiple ways similar to your answer. We can tithe with our time, our attention, our resources, or simply our goodness. That will do.

Hahaha, a lesson they would never forget!

Yeah, I've gotten pretty adept at coming up with an excuse to avoid the immediate commitment and then doing nothing. I used to think that was so annoying especially as a missionary, but now I recognize it as a valid strategy to deflect pushy people without being too confrontational. I wish I would have seen it for what it was back when I was being pushy.

I like your view on tithing, I think I will incorporate it into my discussions with my kids.

græy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:33 am I'm late to this thread, but I'm sorry for your rough Sunday.

I relate to this conversation quite a bit. I try to be honest with our kids when the ask me about polygamy or nonsensical scripture stories. But I have to tread a fine line with DW listening in. Conversations about tithing do not go well with DW. I've always handled pretty much 100% of our finances, so we've reached a point where she doesn't ask and I don't bring it up. She still makes the kids pay tithing on money they get, but even those discussion can get dicey. Its hard to be fully open with kiddos when that honesty places them in a position to have to be guarded in their own conversations with their friends, cousins, grandparents, etc.

I could see one of my kids happily telling their primary class that the bishop doesn't actually believe the BoM to be true or historical in any way. That could make for an interesting day...

Thanks græy. I read through your rough Sunday after I posted about mine and I must say you had it worse . Sounds like we are in similar boats. Whenever my kids ask about something church related I have to put a lot of thought into my responses in order to walk the fine line where me and DW agree. Somehow not betraying myself and lying to them but also not beating up on the church or members. But sometimes the church's position or a teacher's lesson is just dumb and that makes it really hard. And even that looks like being antagonistic to a TBM, if you aren't super supportive then you are an outsider.

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 4:18 pm Every time I read stuff you post, Linked, I must admit I thank my lucky stars that my kids were almost adults by the time I figured out what the church was about. That would be so hard to navigate and negotiate these issues with a believing spouse, and the often confused messages the kiddos get. I'm sure it was a tough Sunday.

Secrets are hard to deal with too. Sis M comes from a Mormon royalty family background, where all the problems are buried and skeletons are nailed into the closet, until they come out screaming. I'm the exact opposite, I'm an open book. So while my kids don't know the full extent of how I'm done with the church despite my "activity" and temple recommend, they know I'm pretty much mentally out. We talk about it, they know they can come to me when they have concerns, which they all have done. I'm convinced that at least two of my kids are going to bail at some point, even though they are pretty "active" themselves. The challenge for Sis M is, they have not gone to her with problems, because they feel judged when they do. And she has tried to stop these conversations, because she doesn't want them to "get out," not unlike your spouse. Now to her credit, Sis M is getting better at this, she's not stupid and can see what's going on and cares deeply about her relationships with her kids. So she doesn't say things like "that's personal" to them anymore, she's more willing to talk it out. So there is hope for Sis. Linked too.

I guess what I'm saying is that even with younger children, your restraint and gentle truth telling, that you did this Sunday, rather than dumping on them all the truths you have figured out from tithing to church history, will be of more benefit in maintaining relationships than keeping secrets will. How you dealt with the situation this Sunday, I'm convinced, will eventually win the day. So it might have been tough, but I think you handled it perfectly. Now that's my experience, so take it for what that's worth.

Good luck buddy, hang in there!

This is really helpful to read about how things have gone for you a little further down the road, thank you for sharing. I suspect Sis L is heading for a similar softening in responses to uncomfortable questions as the kids become teenagers in order to stay close with them. I hope so for the kids sake and for her sake. She's a good and caring woman, but her family growing up was not very open about stuff so she's just doing what she knows, like all of us.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:24 am But it's not a cult, right?

Hahaha, it's almost 200 years old so it's a religion now!

(But which part are you referring to?)