NOM

I'm a longtime member here (since 2015) but a sporadic participant, so I feel like I have to reintroduce myself every time I post, haha

So after my faith collapse I somehow decided the best thing for me for the time being was to NOM it up and be an active nonbeliever. I tried to minimize the presence of the church in my life and focus on other things, but still did all the essentials: attended every week, had a calling, nuanced my way through the temple recommend hoop, kept my mouth shut about my true beliefs, etc. I've done that for approaching 7 years with lots of ups and downs in my mental health.

But starting last fall I kind of fell into what was almost a second faith crisis. Not about church doctrine, I've long since completely deconstructed that. But rather a crisis of faith in maintaining my current situation. It felt unhealthy, dishonest, and unsustainable.

I sort of broke down one night and told my wife this wasn't working anymore, and that I wanted to see a therapist. Thank the flying spaghetti monster we have good insurance, so I was able to find one and have been seeing them for a few months now. They are not Mormon but have worked with Mormons in faith transitions before, so it's nice to have an outside but understanding perspective. Also fun to explain to them things about Mormon doctrine and how the church works and see the WTF? look on their face

Through this process I've realized that while I don't believe in most of the church's teachings anymore, somehow I've still been unable to deconstruct the church's conditioning that I should relinquish my own internal authority and submit to the needs of church members, my family, even my wife. That I need to protect them from the pain and fear that their own beliefs will cause them if they find out where I'm at.

So I'm working on reclaiming my own authority and setting boundaries for myself, even boundaries with my wife. I love her a ton and she's smart and capable and has her own way of dealing with the problematic aspects of the church, and that's great. But I don't have to submit myself to her way of viewing things. My thoughts and feelings matter, too.

I've accepted that we just have different ways of seeing the church and she will likely never leave, so I know I can't completely cut the church out of my life. But I'm working on the margins to be my more authentic self.

Maybe foolishly, I am starting with garments. Why? Because they are the thing I most want to be rid of, they are the most invasive and symbolically controlling thing, and also something that a grown adult should be able to decide for themselves in any other context than Mormonism. I don't want to just suddenly stop wearing them without discussing with DW, because I don't want her to fill in the blank of what that means about us. So I broached the topic a couple of weeks ago and told her I wanted to get regular underwear.

I shouldn't be surprised, but the first couple of conversations haven't gone so well. She had been under the impression that I was just reframing my beliefs, but was still going to maintain what she sees as the core standards and not really change behaviors. We don't have kids yet, but she already brought up her fear that this would mean I wouldn't be able to perform the priesthood rites for them. She doesn't want to give up our shared symbols. (Maybe this is a place where I can point out that while she feels they are a shared symbol, in reality they are not because they mean something different to me)

That conversation was very difficult for both of us, and we agreed to table it for now. I am trying to figure out a way to navigate this without upsetting her, but maybe I just have to accept that she WILL be upset about it.

One of the things I love about her is she's very optimistic and it's her natural disposition that she focuses on the positive side of things. For a long time I thought this was a detriment because she'd never give the dark side of the church the weight needed to leave it. But maybe in this case it will be a good thing, because I can help her see that ditching garments will make me happier and therefore our marriage better.

I'll leave it at that for now. I so appreciate this community of people who really understand this stuff. I still have zero people in real life I can talk to about this besides my therapist.

What is the foundation of all healthy relationships?

Trust.

A question for your wife that you might ask:

Would you rather live with someone who loves you but was hiding their true feelings and not being their true self in order to not hurt you or would you rather live with a man who loves you and is completely honest with you even though the truth might be painful?

There is no easy or painless answer to this question or the dilemma. One way or another someone or both, are going to experience pain. So the only thing to be decided is whether the two people involved love truth and honesty more (The Truth shall make you free) and have trust fully restored in the relationship...... or whether they prefer an imaginary facade and the unhealthy mental/emotional chronic strain that comes to those who prolong self-conflict.

Too straightforward?

I guess one could always limp along, dropping hints from time to time that the church has incongruities that don't sit well and hope that the slow erosion takes it's toll on your wife's beliefs. Pretty hard to do.

You sound really hammered. I really hope this works out for you.

Hey great post! I'm stealth and I was here a lot from 2010 until we lost the first NOM board. I can really relate to what you are saying. I struggle with a little too much of a good thing. I'm overly-agreeable. There are important strengths that come with it but it can also lead to and has led to some problems for me and others.

I think you and your therapist are on the right track. It sounds like perhaps maybe you might have some overly-agreeable traits that can perhaps go too far maybe sometimes?

I'm glad you're back and you're right, this is a great place to get support.

Whether we are orthodox, NOM, post-Mo or Ex-Mo--it's a hell of a thing to go through. High demand religions have their benefits but there is also a lot of pain and suffering for so many of us and our loved ones. Sometimes the orthodox people we love have to get disappointed sometimes and they may grieve and it may take some time for them to get used to the changes. I am glad you are starting to set boundaries for yourself. It's actually, in the long run, an act of kindness for the people we love because you are giving them the gift of truth. They just need some time to adjust. For some of them it can be a long time. I like that you are taking one step at a time. That's also kind to your wife and to yourself. Good luck and keep us updated.

sparky wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:59 am I'm a longtime member here (since 2015) but a sporadic participant, so I feel like I have to reintroduce myself every time I post, haha

(Snip..)

I'll leave it at that for now. I so appreciate this community of people who really understand this stuff. I still have zero people in real life I can talk to about this besides my therapist.

Sparky, I’ve followed your posts since the beginning because I was you for a long time.

I think Pale and Stealth have good advice. I look back at my own journey and don’t know how I got to where I’m at. No G’s, no tithes, no calling, and still married to a Mormon.

She’s become increasingly understanding but recently her hope for my return to church has faded and now she’s just mad that she held on to any bit of hope for all these years. It’s put her in a holding pattern that she now recognizes as wasted time. She’s recognized that she should have been more understanding and less angry. I’m worried this will either mean she’s accepting it now or setting herself up to find a new TBM husband.

I guess the point is that both of you are or will change as your future unfolds and that you have to grow together for good or bad.

If I could have a do over, it would be to have open and honest conversations with the wife about my feelings. I was worried that it would end in divorce. Now I’m just worried that it’s created deep resentment that’s now percolating out.

Regarding your last comment about zero people in real life…. Many of us still get together for lunch all the time. We don’t require a recommend. PM if your interested and we can set something up.

Like Red Ryder, I too feel like i have been you as well, and in many ways still are.

I totally get the difficulty of shedding the conditioning we've experienced at the hands of the church. That we should relinquish our internal authority to external sources. That the church knows better than we do. I still really have a hard time with it. But to me i think it comes down to confidence and the ability to sit with the discomfort of others not always validating me. I'm such a people pleaser (i.e. approval seeker) to begin with -- that combined with the church's conditioning really has done a number on me. I'm slowly learning that the world won't end if I stand up for myself even when others disagree with or are disappointed in me or feel hurt by me and my choices.

You are smart to do therapy. That is a good step forward.

It's true you picked a biggie (garments) for your first personal boundary to assert. But I think it can be better to start with the big ones rather than the slow-bandaid ripping of the little stuff and gradually moving bigger over the years. Plus you're going directly for the thing that bothers you the most.

Hopefully your wife will gradually accept where you're at. It won't be easy but I suggest you keep having discussions to keep the communication lines open. For me it's very easy to just avoid the topic for long stretches -- and then it gets harder and harder to bring it up, and emotions build and then when we finally do broach the topic, it is too emotionally charged.

best wishes to you and your wife!

Palerider wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:24 am A question for your wife that you might ask: Would you rather live with someone who loves you but was hiding their true feelings and not being their true self in order to not hurt you or would you rather live with a man who loves you and is completely honest with you even though the truth might be painful?

Thanks, Palerider. I ask myself this question all the time, maybe it's time I ask her. I told my therapist that I don't want to drag DW into my issues, and they rightly pointed out that 1) she's already dealing with my issues whether she knows it or not, and 2) what is marriage but dealing with each other's issues?

stealthbishop wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:11 am I struggle with a little too much of a good thing. I'm overly-agreeable. There are important strengths that come with it but it can also lead to and has led to some problems for me and others. I think you and your therapist are on the right track. It sounds like perhaps maybe you might have some overly-agreeable traits that can perhaps go too far maybe sometimes?

I hear you, stealth, I am definitely a people-pleaser, and DW is in a lot of ways too. I think it's rare to be raised in Mormonism without developing that trait. I'm working on asserting my own needs and opinions while respecting others.

If I could have a do over, it would be to have open and honest conversations with the wife about my feelings. I was worried that it would end in divorce. Now I’m just worried that it’s created deep resentment that’s now percolating out.

Regarding your last comment about zero people in real life…. Many of us still get together for lunch all the time. We don’t require a recommend. PM if your interested and we can set something up.

Thanks, RR, I always appreciate your advice and good humor. I'd do lots of things differently with a do over, but I suppose that's not productive thinking other than to give advice to others before they make similar mistakes.

Tangent wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:06 pm Hopefully your wife will gradually accept where you're at. It won't be easy but I suggest you keep having discussions to keep the communication lines open. For me it's very easy to just avoid the topic for long stretches -- and then it gets harder and harder to bring it up, and emotions build and then when we finally do broach the topic, it is too emotionally charged.

best wishes to you and your wife!

Thanks, these are good thoughts. I have a major problem with letting things go for long stretches. One of the big ways therapy is helping is giving me someone else to be accountable to and helping me have the motivation to have those conversations.

I think the most important thing is to make it clear to your spouse that you are more devoted to them than you could ever be to a church, and you're not going to let any degree of belief or disbelief overpower that. And that your marriage stands on its own merits, not merely as an appendage to the church. Their natural tendency is to assume that distancing yourself from the church means you are distancing yourself from them. And why wouldn't they? It's what the church teaches.