NOM

Moroni's Promise that we can know truth by good feelings makes it so consistent logic is not required for something to be true. Specifically for the church to "be true". It's more important to have many good feelings than to build a consistent story. So you get mundane stories turned into miracles and cherry-picked coincidences turned into everything is proof that the church is true.

Yup. When you come to the fork in the road and you feel going right is correct- and later learn it was- It was the Holy Ghost telling you which way to go.
You come to the fork in the road and you feel going left was is correct- and it's not- You must have faith to create a scenario that sustains your faith. This is where the logic begins to take several forks (inconsistencies) in the road.
Consider the possibilities: 1. God wanted you to face a trial.
2. You sinned and are unworthy and/or it was the devil, not God that told you you go left.
or even-
3. God told you to go the wrong way so you could learn more quickly that the right way was the other way.
Repeat as needed to sustain your faith. If you don't repeat- quickly repent for your doubts. All paths must lead to faith.
Thanks, Elders Holland & Holland for showing us the third way.

Note: This type of logic will also enable you to believe in a flat earth, and the flying spaghetti monster, and Donald Trump as messiah.

Adding on a few thoughts: The Church Essay on the Priesthood ban allows some people enough space to logically conclude that the ban was 1. To keep Black people from getting the priesthood until it was the "right time." I think this is close to what Dallin Oaks believes.
2. the (White) Church as a whole was not ready to accept black people, so it was a sin of the white people that was the reason for the ban. This is believed and taught by Black TBM's. (Perhaps this is what Darius Gray believes)
3. I've heard other explanations that I can't remember right now.
I remember another one: Brigham Young didn't ask God it the ban was wrong (or right) and so God never told him, he just let it go until Pres. Kimball finally prayed and asked it right. (This begs the question: how or why were other prophets not getting an answer? Wasn't it important?)

There is a TBM logic for every situation, it's just not consistent.

A lot of people say 'cafeteria Mormon' for people who don't obey the rules 100%, but it applies to the way we approach critical thinking too.

I know I've mentioned this before, but when I was visiting my in-laws on their senior mission they were going on about how Elizabeth Warren was a fraud because she changed one of her foundational stories about being fired for being pregnant. I was asking them questions about Warren but they were 100% about the first vision and they absolutely obliterated Joseph Smith without even knowing it.

The point is that you cannot apply consistent thinking or the church falls apart. Just look at how members will gush over advances in medicine or claim someone is guilty over DNA and then completely dismiss all of the science that shows the church isn't true... or the special pleading with polygamy.

Why should I even listen to you guys? Who do you think you are trying to bite off a big mouthful of meat when you can't even handle drinking a little milk?

Great points all around.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:08 am The point is that you cannot apply consistent thinking or the church falls apart. Just look at how members will gush over advances in medicine or claim someone is guilty over DNA and then completely dismiss all of the science that shows the church isn't true... or the special pleading with polygamy.

Maybe it would be better to say "Inconsistent Logic Is Required". I don't say that to beat up on my mormon family and friends, but rather to understand and describe the situation. Consistent logic is orthogonal to how mormon's are taught to find truth. So consistent logic is useful in some situations but inconsistent logic is useful (required) in others. Whether or not consistent logic is applied is not as important to a mormon truth-seeker as the good feelings. So for someone trying to apply consistent logic it looks like a mess, and to a mormon truth-seeker it makes perfect sense. And they both talk right past each other.

It's interesting with mormons because many do embrace education and science, so they often have the tools to apply consistent logic and do so effectively at work and in many other situations, but do not shine that light on their religious beliefs. That's how I was. Until I did.

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but...

Does anyone out there in NOM-Land know of any religion anywhere on planet earth that embraces logic and reason?

Linked wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:02 am Moroni's Promise that we can know truth by good feelings makes it so consistent logic is not required for something to be true. Specifically for the church to "be true". It's more important to have many good feelings than to build a consistent story. So you get mundane stories turned into miracles and cherry-picked coincidences turned into everything is proof that the church is true.

In the beginning of my faith crisis, I went to a non-lds cathedral in Scotland and "felt" the spirit. I told my wife that this kind of confirmed to me that the "spirit" is not always a reliable indicator of truth. She said maybe it was a holy place where the spirit could dwell. This makes sense, but doesn't make sense when you are supposed to get this same feeling when you pray to know if the church is true. And it seems that I could almost create this feeling inside of me if I wanted something bad enough like praying to know if a career path was right for me or if I should marry a certain person. Both of which didn't materialize. I guess it has something to do with confirmation bias?

stuck wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:27 am In the beginning of my faith crisis, I went to a non-lds cathedral in Scotland and "felt" the spirit. I told my wife that this kind of confirmed to me that the "spirit" is not always a reliable indicator of truth. She said maybe it was a holy place where the spirit could dwell. This makes sense, but doesn't make sense when you are supposed to get this same feeling when you pray to know if the church is true. And it seems that I could almost create this feeling inside of me if I wanted something bad enough like praying to know if a career path was right for me or if I should marry a certain person. Both of which didn't materialize. I guess it has something to do with confirmation bias?

Definitely confirmation bias is a huge part of a mormon testimony. Requiring faith is priming a person for confirmation bias. "Tender mercies" prime a person to have confirmation bias that the church is true about everyday occurrences that do not confirm anything.

stuck wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:27 am She said maybe it was a holy place where the spirit could dwell. This makes sense, but doesn't make sense when you are supposed to get this same feeling when you pray to know if the church is true.

We have a real problem when we consider that people of other religions might have the same experience and to the same degree that we have, but seeming to verify the veracity of their religion. The only possible arguments Mormons can apply are:

a) they have some lesser truth so they can feel the spirit, but to a lesser degree
b) they are being deceived by Satan's counterfeit spiritual experiences
c) they are given a little nudge from time to time to push them in the direction of our church

We cannot accept that their experience is equivalent to our own and valid by its own merits. That is sad.