NOM

I split this off from another topic in which hmb said:

hmb wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:25 am Funny though, because looking back, I never felt a desire to end up in the CK. A lower kingdom felt like a better fit, even though I was TBM.

That made me wonder what percentage of active, believing Mormons actually think they belong in the Celestial Kingdom and feel certain they are going to end up there? I don't think I ever felt like I was CK material during my TBM years, no matter how hard I tried. Kind of like how I thought I couldn't get an answer to my prayers about the BoM when I was on my mission because I was unworthy, even though I was about as "sinless" (obsessively obeying the official checklist), sincere, devoted, and hard-working as any 19-year old on the planet.

I wish I could remember who gave this talk. It was someone, likely a GA, describing a training session he had given to a room full of bishops. At one point he asked them to place their heads on the desks and then said, "If you think you are going to the Celestial Kingdom, please raise your hand." Out of roomful of bishops only three raised their hands.

It seems to me that there is a certain, I'm gonna say arrogant and narcissistic, segment of the LDS population who are certain of their impending godhood. I wonder how many of the truly humble nose-to-the-grindstone saints actually think they've got it made?

"Deep Down" I think I always had the inkling that I was never going to be good enough to make it to Super-VIP MORmON heaven. My reasoning for plodding on down the MORmON path was that it was just "what we do," and I clung to the fact that all I could do was live the MORmON checklist to the best of my ability, and "it would all work out" when I was dead. If I just kept the endless repetition of the MORmON hamster-wheel going, eventually something would "click," and I might feel like I was "good enough."

With hindsight, "Deep Down" even as a believer I could never picture a version of the MORmON afterlife that really sounded appealing to me. I don't know how many times I thought that if the Celestial Kingdom was anything like the endowment ceremony, I wanted nothing to do with the CK.

Now I've become such a nihilist that the thought of existing for eternity, no matter what I'm "doing" actually sounds like hell.

I always thought I was among the 144,000 who could go to the CK….wait, that was the JWs…
Now, I find these Mormon beliefs around the CK so weird, whereas I used to only think the JWs were weird. There are so many church leaders who have provided their absolute knowledge on a topic that nobody can know anything about.

My parents had a picture of a Lion laying down with a lamb and some fancy word print quote about the CK. Or I’m confusing my mormon CK memes with the millennium.

Personally, I always thought I’d rather be with fun friends and family in a lower kingdom than with uptight Peter Priesthood and Molly Mormon types wearing white to robes strutting around the CK.

That was until I learned about TK Smoothies and endless wives in the CK.

Now I’m just glad that death will most likely lead to

I always thought dealing with prayers sounded like hell. Worse even than depicted in Bruce Almighty.

I don't expect there to be anything. I like the idea of just being over with it all.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:46 am It seems to me that there is a certain, I'm gonna say arrogant and narcissistic, segment of the LDS population who are certain of their impending godhood. I wonder how many of the truly humble nose-to-the-grindstone saints actually think they've got it made?

I did, but I thought pretty much every believer had it made, and most unbelievers. I told other members that I hoped I would see Bin Laden there. This was after I had learned about grace, and basically had become an evangelical Mormon.

At the time, I acknowledged that evangelicals understood grace and the atonement better than the Q15. Maybe thinking you've got it made as humble, believing Mormon requires some heterodoxy.

Random thoughts:
1) Does the levels of heaven remind you of a pyramid scheme? If someone sells to the highest level of doTerra, will they auto qualify for the CK?
2) How many virgins are promised for you if you advance to the CK? Does this number decrease if you don’t go to the highest level?
3) Will there be general conference in the CK? If so, is it possible to leave for the weekend to avoid attending?

1) could any kind person be happy if they were separated from others?
2) responsibility of the student vs. the teacher. Low student success rates = bad plan = incompetent God.

My new understanding of "heaven"

Everything dies, decomposes, atoms and energy are all mixed together then start cycle again.
All mixed together = united in one heart and one mind, we are all literally one with each other. I now think atheists have the most beautiful view of heaven.

I kind of worry about people who are looking forward to a time in the near future when they will be gods. That doesn't sound healthy. It seems to me that it takes quite an ego to actually think you deserve that kind of promotion.

If, and that is a very big IF, there is such a place and
If, another very big IF, it is as described by “the brethren” then

Who would want to go there anyway?

CK:
White shirts and ties
Everyone dressed the same
Everyone whispering all the time
MoTab music
Bread and water
Self righteous Mormons everywhere
It’s like Utah county on steroids!

TK’s
Tie dye
Parties
AC/DC, Beatles, Queen…
Wine, beer, and Coke
Your cool friend and neighbor Chet who was a Methodist but grills a mean brisket.
It’s like, you know, and after LIFE!

IF…

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:43 am Who would want to go there anyway?

CK:
White shirts and ties
Everyone dressed the same
Everyone whispering all the time
MoTab music
Bread and water
Self righteous Mormons everywhere
It’s like Utah county on steroids!

You have just explained why church is so boring. Mormon Gods are boring. Except some of the toddler gods maybe. They might be fun to play peekaboo with but it would get old after a billion years or so.

I remember when I resigned myself to the fact that I just wasn't CK material. I felt guilty and a little ashamed, but also (when I was being honest with myself) relieved. Trying to live up to CK expectations in mortality was so taxing I couldn't imagine having to do it for eternity.

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:43 am

Self righteous Mormons everywhere
It’s like Utah county on steroids!

That imagery is capable of scaring the bejeezus out of us in the here and now.

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:43 am If, and that is a very big IF, there is such a place and
If, another very big IF, it is as described by “the brethren” then

Who would want to go there anyway?

CK:
White shirts and ties
Everyone dressed the same
Everyone whispering all the time
MoTab music
Bread and water
Self righteous Mormons everywhere
It’s like Utah county on steroids!

TK’s
Tie dye
Parties
AC/DC, Beatles, Queen…
Wine, beer, and Coke
Your cool friend and neighbor Chet who was a Methodist but grills a mean brisket.
It’s like, you know, and after LIFE!

IF…

This is the way I always thought about it. Why would I strive to have an eternity of the CK? You can also add, as a female, I'd get stuck doing eternal babies or baby related chores. I would be an eternal second class citizen, being obedient to some king husband, remaining silent with all my sister wives. Gee, who doesn't want to be a part of that?

Add to the TK list:
NO garments
endless wastes of leisure time like watching Netflix (always something new/good to watch)
No LDS family reunions
No pretending!!

I will admit to still liking the motab choir. I sometime choose to listen to some of their stuff, and I am not ashamed .

As an orthodox believer I internalized quite a lot of the messaging and wound up with a severe case of scrupulosity.

With that background and looking at things retrospectively, I wouldn't call the members that felt like they were going to the CK arrogant or narcissistic, I'd say that they were somehow able to dodge the many bullets that were aimed at assassinating people's self esteem. You'd about have to have the ability to dodge those bullets to come out of the other end a well adjusted individual.

I'm sure arrogant narcissists had a much easier time dodging those bullets but I don't think that everyone that was able to dodge those bullets was an arrogant narcissist.

From what I've seen over the years, the people that didn't internalize what was said at church (for whatever reason) were the happiest. You've got to believe, "that doesn't apply to me" or, "I don't care about that" to make it.

I've seen too many blubbering testimonies at church where people openly confess that they don't feel worthy enough to be the primary president or second counselor in the EQ presidency, or whatever. I'm sure they're all good people, they're just caught in the Mormon monkey trap where they won't let go of the idea that religion has planted in their minds; that they're evil by nature, lower than the dust, not getting the blessing they want because they're not worthy enough, etc., etc.

I don't know if this is intentional, but reflecting back to where a lot of the scrupulosity set in for me (mission), the apostles played good cop/bad cop. Unfortunately it felt like there was a 14 bad cop to one good cop ratio. I had a fondness for one particular apostle because he was the only one that made me feel like going to the CK was possible at all.

All that said...

Tearing other people's self esteem down is something arrogant narcissists do. The church, maybe religions in general, are in a feedback loop of sorts. Arrogant narcissists rise to the top because their self esteem can't be torn down, then arrogant narcissists do what arrogant narcissists do, they perpetuate the cycle.

Maybe I've now graduated and become an arrogant narcissist, because I'm done with the messages that tell me I'm not good enough, that I need more faith, I need more PH power, the toxic perfectionism. I'm good enough. If God's grace can't fill in the gaps enough for me to qualify for a "celestial kingdom" I really don't care. It wouldn't be a place I'd want to be anyway.

It's difficult to remember what I thought about the CK. I didn't think too much about the afterlife. I was more into what was happening in the here and now. I never have really feared death. I did hope to still be connected with my wife and family and I thought of the CK as more of a big tent rather than a small tent. Now I see it as a very small tent and growing smaller all the time. I'm not sure I believe in it much anymore at least not the way the current leadership teaches it. I have zero confidence in the 15s leadership.

Having said all that, as a kid I was fascinated by the idea that we could become gods and organize matter. I have some transhumanism tendancies and the idea of terrforming is very cool to me. Humans will do it at some point if we don't destroy one another and/or the planet first. The fact that I carry around a device that gives me access to nearly unlimited knowledge about anything would seem like magic or that I was godlike to my ancestors obviously. The potential of humanity is amazing as long as we learn from our mistakes and I do see this progressive/optimistic perspective in Mormon theology but not as it is currently taught now. It's been completely obscured. Blaire Ostler is the best representative of Mormon theology now IMHO. Blaire is more of a prophet, seer, and revelator (if there ever was such a thing) than what we have in leadership now. At a minimum Blaire understands Mormon theology better than they do.

The idea of designing aspects of a world always appealed to me, but not the part about being royalty or any sort of authority figure. I still have no desire to be in management, at work or in the afterlife.

I never felt like I measured up, but it helped to learn that you can make a good case for progression between kingdoms. And I also was taught at various times that you'd end up where you'd be happiest. That made sense to me and I didn't worry too much about the afterlife specifically though I did carry a lot of abstract guilt (that was either disproportionate or totally misplaced).

As my beliefs shifted I became even less concerned about some sort of punishment in the afterlife or not measuring up in some way. If God is as advertised then there will be nothing to argue about and whatever happens will make sense and be for our good. Now all I need to do is regain some confidence that there's an afterlife of any kind so I can apply that attitude rather than simply thinking what a waste whenever someone dies.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:42 am "Deep Down" I think I always had the inkling that I was never going to be good enough to make it to Super-VIP MORmON heaven.

Same. I didn't fit their mold and everytime I tried to, I just felt miserable and dead inside.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:51 pm Personally, I always thought I’d rather be with fun friends and family in a lower kingdom than with uptight Peter Priesthood and Molly Mormon types wearing white to robes strutting around the CK.

Right? Eternal church is like the worst hell ever.

Ghost wrote: ↑Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:00 pm If God is as advertised then there will be nothing to argue about and whatever happens will make sense and be for our good.

If you can figure out which advertisements to listen to. He's pretty much all over the place. He could be Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Perfectly Good, or he could be just some guy who lived a sheltered life and checked all the boxes on a checklist of DO NOTs. Brigham Young certainly had no idea who God was.

It's possible that the most advanced aliens in the universe how figured how to run things, and they settled down on a Celestial planet near Kolob. But is it possible that they used the endowment ceremony as initiation to their planet??