NOM

Hard liquor is out. Same for wine, unless it's of your own making. Beer seems to be ok, considering that it is a mild barley drink. But what about hard cider? It is not a distilled "strong drink;" it's fermented, like beer. More importantly it was THE most common beverage in North America in the early 19th century and that drunk by men, women, and children instead of water which was as often deadly as not.

Why isn't it mentioned specifically in the revelation?

Could JS have felt it was addressed with hot drinks?

It was probably too popular and widely drunk by the pre-Utah Mormons to be included.

When Emma and the girls (sister-wives) complained about the disgusting mess left after late-night School of the Prophets meetings, strewn whiskey bottles, and tobacco spit that missed the spittoon were the irksome items (although the full spittoons would have also been disgusting).

Coffee and tea drinking was neat and tidy, but neither of them provided the buzz you needed for late-night prophecy.

Did they even call it hard cider back then? It probably was just cider, and everyone including the kids drank it…

Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:24 pm Why isn't it mentioned specifically in the revelation?

God hadn't heard about it.

I think this goes back to the deeper doctrines of the temple ceremony. If I recall correctly:

Micheal = Adam
Adam + Eve = humanity
Humans + Sin = Gods plan

Micheal the archangel is the “Mike” behind Mike’s Hard Lemonade.

I think it's because it could not be part of the tit for tat. Emma wanted the boys to give up whiskey and chewing tobacco. Fine, said JS, but the women have to give up coffee and tea. They all liked the cider so there was no value in forbidding it.

blazerb wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:49 pm I think it's because it could not be part of the tit for tat. Emma wanted the boys to give up whiskey and chewing tobacco. Fine, said JS, but the women have to give up coffee and tea. They all liked the cider so there was no value in forbidding it.

Is there any kind of documentation/evidence that JS used coffee/tea to stick it back at Emma and the wives?

I have heard this a few times but never knew it was speculation that he did it this way or if there was any kind of corroboration for it. I just always assumed it was because those were the teachings floating around him at the time as to hot drinks being unhealthy as people believed they could injure you internally.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:17 pm Is there any kind of documentation/evidence that JS used coffee/tea to stick it back at Emma and the wives?

I have heard this a few times but never knew it was speculation that he did it this way or if there was any kind of corroboration for it. I just always assumed it was because those were the teachings floating around him at the time as to hot drinks being unhealthy as people believed they could injure you internally.

My comment was more tongue in cheek than anything. I spent a little time looking up the history. As I read, there may not be much evidence that the coffee and tea thing was used to "stick it" to the women. Prohibiting distilled alcohol, tobacco, coffee, and tea were common tenets of temperance societies of the day. Many even discouraged meat eating, if I'm reading correctly. See here: https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/etd/5039/

Based on a very quick reading, a more realistic answer to the question may be that the temperance societies were split on whether fermented, as opposed to distilled, drinks were harmful. Some temperance societies condemned wine and beer, others did not. I think JS either split down the middle saying wine was out but the others were fine, or he grabbed his revelation from some particular group with idiosyncratic ideas about which drinks were acceptable. I'll keep looking to see if there is evidence that he was looking for things that women would have to give up.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:17 pm Is there any kind of documentation/evidence that JS used coffee/tea to stick it back at Emma and the wives?

There's an old Sunstone article about the WoW that may have mentioned this? Yes, I'm too lazy to go looking.

If I didn't read it there, I probably heard it on a podcast how Joe "used" the WoW to get back at Emma.

blazerb wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:37 am Based on a very quick reading, a more realistic answer to the question may be that the temperance societies were split on whether fermented, as opposed to distilled, drinks were harmful. Some temperance societies condemned wine and beer, others did not. I think JS either split down the middle saying wine was out but the others were fine, or he grabbed his revelation from some particular group with idiosyncratic ideas about which drinks were acceptable. I'll keep looking to see if there is evidence that he was looking for things that women would have to give up.

Don't spend any time on it - I've heard it in multiple places before and just wondered if there was something out there that indicated Joseph Smith put tea/coffee in there to be vindictive.

Considering I think they all continued to drink tea/coffee for the most part I don't think it was enforced in any way, but it would be something else if JS had done that to punish Emma for pushing for that revelation.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:59 pm Joseph Smith put tea/coffee in there to be vindictive.

If those women folk can take away our whiskey and tobacco, then by Jiminy we can take away their tea and coffee!!! Those Sister-Wives will rue the day when we serve red Kool-Aid at their weddings.

Is cider only from apples? Or did they make it from other fruit too?

2bizE, there is a similar drink made from pears called Perry.

Mormon apologists would probably argue that the cider during Joseph Smith's day was actually 7 Up, similar to the incident at a wedding in Cana, where Jesus turned water into grape juice.

blazerb wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:37 am Based on a very quick reading, a more realistic answer to the question may be that the temperance societies were split on whether fermented, as opposed to distilled, drinks were harmful. Some temperance societies condemned wine and beer, others did not. I think JS either split down the middle saying wine was out but the others were fine, or he grabbed his revelation from some particular group with idiosyncratic ideas about which drinks were acceptable. I'll keep looking to see if there is evidence that he was looking for things that women would have to give up.

D&C 89:6 Says "And, behold, this should be wine, yea, apure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make." Does anyone have any reference to what "pure wine" is in a 1830's context?

On one hand JS says that wine is bad but in the next verse he says it's okay if you make it yourself. We know JS had the revelation about sacrament wine could be water or wine of your own make because wine made by outsiders was bad.

So was JS against wine or was a a way to maintain paranoia against outsiders and keep up the everyone-is-out-to-get-us rhetoric?

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:15 am D&C 89:6 Says "And, behold, this should be wine, yea, apure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make." Does anyone have any reference to what "pure wine" is in a 1830's context?

On one hand JS says that wine is bad but in the next verse he says it's okay if you make it yourself. We know JS had the revelation about sacrament wine could be water or wine of your own make because wine made by outsiders was bad.

So was JS against wine or was a a way to maintain paranoia against outsiders and keep up the everyone-is-out-to-get-us rhetoric?

Maybe he wanted to make sure he could give the wine his own special ingredients to make sure everyone had a spiritual experience?

That is also pure speculation. I don't find much firm evidence that JS used entheogenics.

I'm listening to Daniel Okrent's book on Prohibition right now, and it's interesting that hard cider was specifically excluded from the Volstead act. (Wine was drunk by rich people, and beer was drunk by German immigrants, who were... not popular... in the early 20th century.) Reason being, the farmers would have never gone along with it otherwise, since turning apples into a tasty alcoholic drink was how they "preserved" their crops

Considering that the WoW wasn't actually enforced until American Prohibition kicked in, maybe there's a parallel there.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:15 am Does anyone have any reference to what "pure wine" is in a 1830's context?

I can take a guess at it. The wine Joseph passed around in a bucket at the Kirtland temple dedication was referred to by attendees as "mixed wine." The question is what was mixed into it? Was it fortified with distilled liquor? Was it enriched with psychedelic substances? All we know is that those who drank it had a very different experience than those who did not, and saw things that the others did not.

With that as a reference, I would say that "pure wine" means grapes only. No shenanegans.

Incidentally, when we read about wine in ancient contexts they are very rarely describing "pure wine," especially if it is being used for a religious or ceremonial purpose.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:20 pm The wine Joseph passed around in a bucket at the Kirtland temple dedication was referred to by attendees as "mixed wine." The question is what was mixed into it? Was it fortified with distilled liquor? Was it enriched with psychedelic substances? All we know is that those who drank it had a very different experience than those who did not, and saw things that the others did not.

This article on the practice of adding hallucinogens to wine is interesting. Is it conceivable for people in Kirkland to have somehow received the ancient knowledge of psychedelics?

https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgqej4/ ... ucinogenic

moksha wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:14 pm

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:20 pm The wine Joseph passed around in a bucket at the Kirtland temple dedication was referred to by attendees as "mixed wine." The question is what was mixed into it? Was it fortified with distilled liquor? Was it enriched with psychedelic substances? All we know is that those who drank it had a very different experience than those who did not, and saw things that the others did not.

This article on the practice of adding hallucinogens to wine is interesting. Is it conceivable for people in Kirkland to have somehow received the ancient knowledge of psychedelics?

https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgqej4/ ... ucinogenic

It could very possible it was one of the occult/spiritual practices Joseph learned from Lumen Walter.

I recently read the book discussed in that article, Moksha, and it's fascinating. The big disappointment is that the Catholic church has sacramental chalices that were excavated from the earliest underground Christian churches that have residue of the sacramental wines, but they will not allow them to be analyzed. But it has now been proven that at least some of the Greek Mystery cults were using ergotized beer (LSD).

The evidence that Christianity grew out of the Dionysus mystery cult is pretty eye-opening, maybe even startling.