NOM

Sorry if this has already been covered. Just listened to the Year of Polygamy podcast on John C. Bennett - I can’t even tell you how annoyed I was that Brian Hales went on and on about how we shouldn’t engage in “speculation” about Joseph Smith’s behavior and how wrong everyone is to jump to conclusions about his behavior, but had no problem declaring flatly that Sarah Pratt had an affair with John C. Bennett. He’s pretty cool with speculation when it suits his purposes.

I also disliked how the podcast sidestepped the issue that one of those who accused Bennet of performing abortions was Sarah Pratt - I was surprised that they didn’t even mention her statement on the subject.

Say what you will about Sarah Pratt, but I find her way more reliable than Joseph Smith was.

Finally, I can’t stand Brian Hales. I can’t help but be deeply suspicious of anyone who would try and convince me it was OK for Joseph to mess around with married women and young girls, and be a sexual predator in general. Dude has something seriously wrong with his moral compass.

I listened to this and had similar thoughts - it's funny how apologists so often do the very same things they accuse critics of whether it's cherry picking sources, dismissing people they don't like, or excusing bad behavior to privilege their preexisting beliefs.

Where my problems really begin with Hales is on his work with BoM creation - his positions are so ridiculous but that's been his primary focus the last year or so, and his explanations are just nonsensical as he attempts to create unrealistic equations in order to make the BoM seem more miraculous.

For Brian Hales and many other apologists, the task is to preserve as much of the standard narrative of the church as possible and ease the transition as the church accepts that much of what was taught is just bilge. So, it seems that they have a hierarchy of who must be protected. I propose that they are, in order of importance:

1: Joseph Smith
2: Other presidents of the church
3: Other leaders of the church
4: Members who stayed faithful to the church
5: Those who left the church

In any one story, a person lower on the ladder must take all the blame to protect someone higher on the ladder. There are some oddities like the 3 and 8 witnesses who need to be lionized in some contexts but declared untrustworthy in others. A woman who leaves the church, like Sarah Pratt, is going to be totally vilified. They'll be happy to accept her statements that show how awful Bennett was, but they will prefer to leave her anonymous in those contexts.

They are not trying to do history. They are trying to preserve faith, their own as much as anyone's. I think Brian Hales really believes it when he says some of his whoppers, but I wonder how heavy his shelf is getting.

This one is emotional for me. When I realized that Joseph Smith was a liar my shelf broke, but when I came to understand what he did to Sarah Pratt, and Orson Pratt for that matter (although his later actions show he kind of deserved it), I got really pissed. Is there an episode number for the Year of Polygamy episode that Brian Hales is part of? I'm not sure which one you listened to from your description.

Isn't Brian Hales the guy who left FARMS (or whatever it's called these days) that publicly disavowed their tactics and condemned their bad apologetic? IF not, I could be mixing up my apologists. I tend to do that.

If I do have the right guy, any word on if he has changed his stance regarding polygamy ?

deacon blues wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:37 am This one is emotional for me. When I realized that Joseph Smith was a liar my shelf broke, but when I came to understand what he did to Sarah Pratt, and Orson Pratt for that matter (although his later actions show he kind of deserved it), I got really pissed. Is there an episode number for the Year of Polygamy episode that Brian Hales is part of? I'm not sure which one you listened to from your description.

In case you haven't found it already, I think you want episode 94. This one is a 4-part series. I think you want to listen to the part entitled "Women Who Said No" to hear about Sarah Pratt.

Did Sarah Pratt leave Orson or just the church?

stuck wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:05 pm Did Sarah Pratt leave Orson or just the church?

She eventually left Orson and became a crusader against polygamy. That she became so virulently anti-Mormon is enough for the likes of Brian Hales to discount anything she ever said. However given that we can prove Joseph Smith a liar and can only speculate whether Sarah ever lied about the things she said, I trust Sarah way more than I trust Joseph. Just because she had an axe to grind doesn't mean she wasn't telling the truth. And it is beyond dispute that Joseph Smith lied publicly about polygamy, however apologists like Mr. Hales may choose to try and justify it.

So slander away at Sarah Pratt if you like, Mr. Hales, but proving Joseph a liar - and a serial cheater and adulterer - and a sexual predator - and an all around creep - requires no speculation. The evidence is all there no matter how hard you try and spin it away.

He puts people to sleep in more ways than one!

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:04 am

stuck wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:05 pm Did Sarah Pratt leave Orson or just the church?

She eventually left Orson and became a crusader against polygamy. That she became so virulently anti-Mormon is enough for the likes of Brian Hales to discount anything she ever said. However given that we can prove Joseph Smith a liar and can only speculate whether Sarah ever lied about the things she said, I trust Sarah way more than I trust Joseph. Just because she had an axe to grind doesn't mean she wasn't telling the truth. And it is beyond dispute that Joseph Smith lied publicly about polygamy, however apologists like Mr. Hales may choose to try and justify it.

So slander away at Sarah Pratt if you like, Mr. Hales, but proving Joseph a liar - and a serial cheater and adulterer - and a sexual predator - and an all around creep - requires no speculation. The evidence is all there no matter how hard you try and spin it away.

In fact she most likely had an ax to grind because everything she said was true. Many men dismiss and angry woman as just an angry woman because they don’t want to consider that women really do have things to be angry about. That might hurt the men’s itty bitty feelings.