NOM

A few days ago my partner and I drove south and ended up on the BYU campus. She told me about the places she worked, where she took classes, etc.
It got me thinking about my TBM days, and specifically the Truman Madsen cassette tapes you could purchase on Joseph Smith. Truman lectured for about 6 hours and covered everything TBM that made Joseph a super hero.

I remember listening to those days,...and guy golly,....IT WAS TRUE! I KNEW IT WITH EVERY FIBER OF MY SOUL! <<cringe cringe cringe>>

But that is serious. I really DID believe.

I remember hearing Truman talking about the Nauvoo Expositor. Truman said he read it -- that it was not gentle -- and that the person who wrote it, William Law in particular, was an actual Son of Perdition.

Now I've read other posts here, and also have become more informed about the Expositor. It wasn't telling lies; the thing contained in it, the accusations against JS, were in fact ACCURATE and TRUE.

I can't help but wonder about Truman. I am also looking back at myself. In my own mind, when I was a TBM, I couldn't understand how others could disbelieve. Now that I'm on the outside, I can't understand how people like Truman can believe.

I've given myself whiplash as I've been swung to a new extreme!

Truman Madsen's lectures on Joseph Smith were pretty influential for me also. I listened to them originally when I was still a full believer and they did bolster my testimony at the time.

Still, I remember that Madsen related several stories about Joseph Smith that were nearly in the realm of the fantastic, but there was no documentation about where these stories were located or any contextual information about them. Granted, these were lectures and I would not assume that bibliographic chapter and verse descriptions of talks or writings might have been provided. Still, the stories struck me as being something that would not be introduced to an investigator, but would make more sense for someone who implicitly wanted to see Joseph Smith as a superhuman.

I should track down those lectures and see how I interpret them now.

Corsair wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:49 pm I should track down those lectures and see how I interpret them now.

I may still have them on CD somewhere.

Remind me next time we meet for lunch.

Those tapes impacted me, also. I would expect historical lectures to give biographical information. Maybe not on the tapes, but there should have been some sort of supporting documentation. I really wanted to know where some of those stories came from.

There was also a one-person show someone put on about the life of JS. At the end of it, I was in tears. I just knew that JS was a prophet. I was annoyed with the young woman I was dating at the time. She and her roommate were boisterous, in my opinion, at the end of the show. I did not wat to be around them. I am horrified at how I allowed myself to be manipulated.

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:03 am ... and that the person who wrote it, William Law, in particular, was an actual Son of Perdition.

Could William and Jane Law be consigned to the Mormon version of hell just by rejecting the proposition that they enter a wife swapping scheme with Joseph and Emma? One has to really let their imagination wander down the rabbit cult hole for that one!

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:03 am I can't help but wonder about Truman. I am also looking back at myself. In my own mind, when I was a TBM, I couldn't understand how others could disbelieve. Now that I'm on the outside, I can't understand how people like Truman can believe.

I've given myself whiplash as I've been swung to a new extreme!

It's because our default epistemology is pretty garbage.

Okay, not really garbage. We got science and other forms of precise inquiry out of it. But it does tend toward confirmation bias and extremes. And it's difficult for us in general, not just with religion, to understand people who think too differently from us.

I read a position paper in a psychology journal once that made a good case that understanding is believing. I'm not sure that's true, but I think intuition and empathy mostly work that way. It leaves us in a funny state of both understanding and not understanding Mormonism. We can think our way through Mormonism but we don't feel it anymore, and sometimes we make bad snap judgments about it.

IMO that leaves us better off than those on the inside, most of whom can't understand us even by thinking their way through it.

I was a fan of the JS tapes, and even more of a fan of Madsen's book Eternal Man. I guess I probably still like that book, just for the attempt at exploring philosophical ideas in a Mormon context. That was something I couldn't seem to find anywhere else. (Sterling McMurrin was also doing that at around the same time-even slightly earlier, I think--but I was not aware of him at all until years later.)

I loved those tapes. One of my companions on my mission would put them on as we went to sleep. We were treated to stories of superhero Joseph Smith. No wonder I liked it as a 19 year old young man.

I had a similar experience with Talmage's Jesus the Christ. In both they are bold and escape certain death multiple times inexplicably. Add a little magic and some super powers with a lot of time and it all feels a little more true.

Glad you posted this. DW and I pulled them up (maybe YouTube?) about 2 years ago while on a raod trip. We both had listened to them many times, especially in the mission field. I heard the talks with new ears, but I could still hear it with my old ears, too, and I found myself feeling a fondness for the flow of the talk and I remembered how much I really loved Joseph.

And then we both got really angry so we turned it off. It was a confusing listening experience.

"STRUCK!" And "A religion for the SPACE AGE!"

Those are the 2 lines where you wake up and pull the car off the shoulder rumble strips. [emoji1787]

I'm super pissed at Truman "G. Middle Initial Like the General Authorities" Madsen. I had his book "Joseph Smith the Prophet" that was based on the tapes, on my mission I thought it was the most amazingest book ever. Gave me the feels all the time about how special Joseph was and how blessed I was to know the truth of his mission.

I remember the story Madsen told about when Joseph told Heber C. Kimball his wife Vilate was to be married to Joseph, and how when Heber agreed Joseph told him it was just an "Abrahamic" test. That story by itself should have been enough of a red flag, but I was too brainwashed to wonder why Joseph was asking for anyone else's wife, why that was even a thing he would ask for, even if it was just an "Abrahamic" test. I should have wondered why I didn't know more about Joseph's plural wives, but I guess that's how brainwashing works.

But that bastard Truman Madsen left out the end of the story. Instead of Vilate, Joseph took their "several months before her 15th birthday" daughter Helen for a wife instead. Madsen knew what happened afterwards, of course he did - and he took one hell of an f***** up story and spun it into some ghastly inspirational story about what great faith Heber had. And I fell for it. That story is so messed up on so many levels.

I hate Truman Madsen. He was a con man who conned me, and I will never forgive him for it.

I remember in those tables that Truman claimed Brigham Young wanted to know WHO Joseph really was. Joseph's response was: "If I told you who I am Brigham, you would leave the church!" And Truman said Brigham's responsed: "Then Don't Tell me!.....for what I know I know."

What a load of rot.

I've read some things attributed to BY and he was a micro-manager, a bully, and a misogynistic creep. He was also filled with avarice, regardless of who it hurt.

Regarding Joseph Smith -- I remember reading in Rough Stone Rolling about JS in Missouri, and he came across as seriously having narcissistic personality disorder. And the info Truman provided above (which I remembered AFTER reading RSR) confirms this.

JS really had a high sense of himself. And Truman did exactly what JS would have wanted: worshiped him as though he did more for the human family "save Jesus Christ only". OH yeh,...those who worshiped JS (like Brigham and John Taylor) climbed the ladder.