Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
Interesting they have to tell members to get vaccinated. Why are so many TBMs anti-vax?
Even more interesting is they are sort of telling the nutjobs to calm down a bit. They should have done this when Julie Rowe was popular six or seven years ago.
also added a policy on what it calls "extreme preparation" or "survivalism."
"Church leaders have counseled against extreme or excessive preparation for possible catastrophic events," the handbook reads in part. "Such efforts are sometimes called survivalism. Efforts to prepare should be motivated by faith, not fear.
I see the change that single men can be counselors in the bishopric. However, I was in student wards at BYU in the 90s with single counselors. Now there is a requirement that they be high priests, which was not a requirement back when I was in the wards. Is this a step forward? Did the church take two steps backward before taking one step forward to give the appearance of progress? I don't understand this change.
blazerb wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:10 am
I see the change that single men can be counselors in the bishopric. However, I was in student wards at BYU in the 90s with single counselors. Now there is a requirement that they be high priests, which was not a requirement back when I was in the wards. Is this a step forward? Did the church take two steps backward before taking one step forward to give the appearance of progress? I don't understand this change.
If you recall, awhile back they merged the High Priests and the Elders Quorum into just the Elders Quorum. But still promote leaders to High Priests. As far as I can remember the Bishop 3 were always made high Priests. Maybe not in student wards those. I never made it that far so don’t know for sure.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:33 am
If you recall, awhile back they merged the High Priests and the Elders Quorum into just the Elders Quorum. But still promote leaders to High Priests. As far as I can remember the Bishop 3 were always made high Priests. Maybe not in student wards those. I never made it that far so don’t know for sure.
I can see that. Maybe the rules for student wards were different, maybe I've created my own special memories that never happened. Thanks.
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:33 am
If you recall, awhile back they merged the High Priests and the Elders Quorum into just the Elders Quorum. But still promote leaders to High Priests. As far as I can remember the Bishop 3 were always made high Priests. Maybe not in student wards those. I never made it that far so don’t know for sure.
I can see that. Maybe the rules for student wards were different, maybe I've created my own special memories that never happened. Thanks.
I was a bishopric counselor in a student ward. I was disappointed when they explained that I didn't have to be promoted.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.
The part of telling members to get vaccinated and not to commit affinity fraud through their numerous investment frauds and multi-level marketing pyramid schemes sounds good.
Wish they would have added a line about giving back tithing monies that came to the Church directly through these fraudulent schemes, without requiring a court order. That puts Utah judges in a hard position in requiring the Church to return money given by a criminal enterprise. Ask yourselves, "What would the CTR symbol do?"
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
moksha wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:19 pm
The part of telling members to get vaccinated and not to commit affinity fraud through their numerous investment frauds and multi-level marketing pyramid schemes sounds good.
Wish they would have added a line about giving back tithing monies that came to the Church directly through these fraudulent schemes, without requiring a court order. That puts Utah judges in a hard position in requiring the Church to return money given by a criminal enterprise. Ask yourselves, "What would the CTR symbol do?"
It's great for the church to point out the danger of affinity fraud, taking peoples' money based on misplaced trust and false claims, but it is a little bit like the pot calling the kettle black. At least, that's what James Huntsman's lawsuit claims.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
blazerb wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:10 am
I see the change that single men can be counselors in the bishopric. However, I was in student wards at BYU in the 90s with single counselors. Now there is a requirement that they be high priests, which was not a requirement back when I was in the wards. Is this a step forward? Did the church take two steps backward before taking one step forward to give the appearance of progress? I don't understand this change.
If you recall, awhile back they merged the High Priests and the Elders Quorum into just the Elders Quorum. But still promote leaders to High Priests. As far as I can remember the Bishop 3 were always made high Priests. Maybe not in student wards those. I never made it that far so don’t know for sure.
It comes down to how the church is organised. Previously you needed x amount of high priests and married men to have a fully functioning ward. Now you don’t need high priests and the ability to fill 2 supporting roles to one married Bishop becomes a lot easier. This feeds into the brief demographics the Church released recently. Over half of all adult are single, divorced or widowed. That means they are struggling to fill the roles to build basic units. By removing marriage status for key roles, they can now meaningfully engage single members. It also means you can divide wards and create new ones and news stakes to artificially bloat the growth numbers.
moksha wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:19 pm
The part of telling members to get vaccinated and not to commit affinity fraud through their numerous investment frauds and multi-level marketing pyramid schemes sounds good.
Wish they would have added a line about giving back tithing monies that came to the Church directly through these fraudulent schemes, without requiring a court order. That puts Utah judges in a hard position in requiring the Church to return money given by a criminal enterprise. Ask yourselves, "What would the CTR symbol do?"
blazerb wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:10 am
I see the change that single men can be counselors in the bishopric. However, I was in student wards at BYU in the 90s with single counselors. Now there is a requirement that they be high priests, which was not a requirement back when I was in the wards. Is this a step forward? Did the church take two steps backward before taking one step forward to give the appearance of progress? I don't understand this change.
If you recall, awhile back they merged the High Priests and the Elders Quorum into just the Elders Quorum. But still promote leaders to High Priests. As far as I can remember the Bishop 3 were always made high Priests. Maybe not in student wards those. I never made it that far so don’t know for sure.
It comes down to how the church is organised. Previously you needed x amount of high priests and married men to have a fully functioning ward. Now you don’t need high priests and the ability to fill 2 supporting roles to one married Bishop becomes a lot easier. This feeds into the brief demographics the Church released recently. Over half of all adult are single, divorced or widowed. That means they are struggling to fill the roles to build basic units. By removing marriage status for key roles, they can now meaningfully engage single members. It also means you can divide wards and create new ones and news stakes to artificially bloat the growth numbers.
Thanks for pointing this out. I briefly overheard that statistic but didn’t make the connection.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
no1saint wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:26 am
It also means you can divide wards and create new ones and news stakes to artificially bloat the growth numbers.
Wow, yeah, you're right about that. They have been doing this in our area with disastrous results. 7 wards that were semi-solid are now 10 struggling units, but on paper it looks great! I fully expect our stake president to be made an area authority or a mission president soon, so what does he care?
moksha wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:19 pm
The part of telling members to get vaccinated and not to commit affinity fraud through their numerous investment frauds and multi-level marketing pyramid schemes sounds good.
Wish they would have added a line about giving back tithing monies that came to the Church directly through these fraudulent schemes, without requiring a court order. That puts Utah judges in a hard position in requiring the Church to return money given by a criminal enterprise. Ask yourselves, "What would the CTR symbol do?"
The CTR would Collect The Rewards
Or Collect Tithing Rapidly
Don't mean to threadjack, but was anyone else sent out with fast offering envelopes as a 12 year old to go pester inactives for money? It was always incredibly awkward, asking people I didn't know and never saw at Church for money. That's pretty low really, sending 12 year olds out to collect your money for you. I did it all by myself sometimes too, which in retrospect wasn't all that safe really.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph
moksha wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:19 pm
The part of telling members to get vaccinated and not to commit affinity fraud through their numerous investment frauds and multi-level marketing pyramid schemes sounds good.
Wish they would have added a line about giving back tithing monies that came to the Church directly through these fraudulent schemes, without requiring a court order. That puts Utah judges in a hard position in requiring the Church to return money given by a criminal enterprise. Ask yourselves, "What would the CTR symbol do?"
The CTR would Collect The Rewards
Or Collect Tithing Rapidly
Don't mean to threadjack, but was anyone else sent out with fast offering envelopes as a 12 year old to go pester inactives for money? It was always incredibly awkward, asking people I didn't know and never saw at Church for money. That's pretty low really, sending 12 year olds out to collect your money for you. I did it all by myself sometimes too, which in retrospect wasn't all that safe really.
Yeah, I knocked on doors pestering folks for money as a "deacon."
Come to think of it, that door-knocking was likely good training for the 2-year sales position I also fulfilled 7 years later.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:28 pm
The deacons are now 11 year olds.
Going door to door in a world of online payments.
Knock knock: (in a prepubescent voice) Hello, I’m Deacon Jones from the Salt Lake 78th ward. Can you donate to our fast and furious fund?
Sister Smith: we pay online now.
Prepubescent Deacon: OK thanks! See you next month.
Life hack tip if they still come to your house: grab the blue envelope from them and don’t give it back as you tell them you pay online.
A few years ago, we tried to improve fast offering collection in my ward. We actually asked inactive members if they even wanted us to stop by anymore. Many of them liked that and had their blue envelope removed. Most of them never came to the door. We also asked ward members to pay online and not use the blue envelope. Then there were plenty of older folks who still wanted the deacons to come by anyway.
In the end after this cleanup in my ward, each deacon, still has to visit at least 12-15 homes with only 0-1 of them that answers the door and pays fast offering.
