NOM

On the Armchair Expert podcast today Dax and Monica had author George Saunders on. The discussion was about all sorts of things, but one bit really hit home about the moment of faith transition. In George's case, this was his moment realizing he no longer believed in the Ayn Rand view of the world (I know very little about Ayn Rand and have no opinion on the Randian world view).

George Saunders wrote:Oh wait a minute, something's untrue about Ayn Rand... So that was kind of a big moment where I just went "I think I've been believing bullsh*t." And then there's that beautiful, kind of, hole in your soul where you're like, "Ok, so if that's not it, what else is there?" and also a lot of small points of disjunction start to get cleared up for you and you go, "Wait a minute, oh I see, yeah. All those little moments of stress I felt under this belief system, I'm now relieved of them and I can replace it with something that's actually true."

I love how concise this is and how it takes an objective view of what he is personally going through. Realize it's BS, try to find the not-BS, reflect on the problems caused by believing the BS and enjoy the relief of not believing that anymore.

Cheers!

ETA: This portion starts around 17:30 on the podcast. I forgot to specifically point out the obvious similarities to a mormon moment of faith transition. I felt seen when he said this.

Yeah.

Ayn Rand is a lot like that saying, "I teach the philosophies of men mingled with scripture." Only she doesn't even include a belief in God. There are a few things she adheres to that seem close to the truth but in the end she comes up pretty empty.

Mormonism is a little more benign.

Ayn Rand is altogether odious, misanthropic, and antisocial. I regret ever associating with her "philosophy". It is refreshing not to have to believe ignominious bullshit or falsehoods, whether produced by Ayn Rand or Joseph Smith.

2112


(I shall smile very largely if anyone gets the reference. )

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:16 pm 2112


(I shall smile very largely if anyone gets the reference. )

I assume this has everything to do with the Priests of the Temple of Syrinx. Either I have made you smile very largely or I have gone in an entirely inexplicable direction.

I'm fascinated with the moment of transition concept. Most postmos I talk to seem to have a precise moment when they reached the peak and started down the other side. Or maybe more like a rubber band stretching tighter and tighter until it finally snaps. I can remember the exact second that happened to me. Some people just have a gradual line-upon-line acceptance, but for most there seems to be a resist-resist-resist-resist-SNAP-accept kind of pattern.

Can you relate?

Thanks for the podcast recommendation, Linked!

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:50 am I'm fascinated with the moment of transition concept. Most postmos I talk to seem to have a precise moment when they reached the peak and started down the other side. Or maybe more like a rubber band stretching tighter and tighter until it finally snaps. I can remember the exact second that happened to me. Some people just have a gradual line-upon-line acceptance, but for most there seems to be a resist-resist-resist-resist-SNAP-accept kind of pattern.

Can you relate?

Thanks for the podcast recommendation, Linked!

I had two different "faith journey" experiences.

The first was the rubber band where I was having issues with polygamy and the 'ban on blacks' - those were the only two problems I was aware of and I was too afraid to hop on Google. My first time through the temple snapped the rubber band and from there it was just me drifting through the church for a few years before I left. When I left the temple any belief I had left in the church was mentally shattered, but again I was too terrified to do anything about it.

The second one was more like I set it all aside and went inactive. I knew if I pushed I was risking my marriage (DW's family had drawn clear lines in the sand on church stuff before so that was a real fear), so I just ignored it until my kid started saying things about the church that really creeped me out for a four year old. The two that really stuck out were:

"You know who can share the Book of Mormon? We can!"
"I can't wait to go to the temple someday"

That brought me back into rubber band and then it snapped again when I was with DW's family and everyone was talking about missions and BYU. The weird thing is this time I was able to hop on Google, and finding out everything was both shocking and relieving all at once. On one hand, I was shocked that I was so naive to not see all of the problems and really angry at myself for being so afraid to look. On the other hand, it was such a relief to know that I was not crazy to walk away and it actually made a lot more sense which made me feel so much more at peace with my disbelief.

Since I left I've talked to so many including all of you and it seems like everyone's journey is both unique but similar... like there are a few common threads that most go through, even though those threads all have unique bumps and problems.

Corsair wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:18 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:16 pm 2112


(I shall smile very largely if anyone gets the reference. )

I assume this has everything to do with the Priests of the Temple of Syrinx. Either I have made you smile very largely or I have gone in an entirely inexplicable direction.

♫ We have assumed control. ♫

Linked wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:46 am

George Saunders wrote:Oh wait a minute, something's untrue about Ayn Rand... So that was kind of a big moment where I just went "I think I've been believing bullsh*t." And then there's that beautiful, kind of, hole in your soul where you're like, "Ok, so if that's not it, what else is there?" and also a lot of small points of disjunction start to get cleared up for you and you go, "Wait a minute, oh I see, yeah. All those little moments of stress I felt under this belief system, I'm now relieved of them and I can replace it with something that's actually true."

YES, this describes my own light bulb moment so well!

August 2014: I had just finished a book on Joseph Smith by a non-Mormon. I closed it, stood up, and thought to myself, "he made it all up. It's all bullsh!t!" And it was terrifying and exhilarating and such a Truman-show ending kind of moment. Thank you for sharing this, Linked. I love hearing how other people describe their experience of these kinds of moments. It does make one feel seen, doesn't it?

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:50 am I'm fascinated with the moment of transition concept. Most postmos I talk to seem to have a precise moment when they reached the peak and started down the other side. Or maybe more like a rubber band stretching tighter and tighter until it finally snaps. I can remember the exact second that happened to me. Some people just have a gradual line-upon-line acceptance, but for most there seems to be a resist-resist-resist-resist-SNAP-accept kind of pattern.

Can you relate?

Thanks for the podcast recommendation, Linked!

I still clearly remember the day my husband called home during lunch, and I told him that I was pretty sure the church was all a lie. I couldn't keep it in anymore after I finally realized it that morning. The shelf crashed, and there was no way I could believe it any more. It was terrifying and freeing all at once.

Now, I just wish it'd happened a couple decades sooner.

LSOF wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:23 am Ayn Rand is altogether odious, misanthropic, and antisocial. I regret ever associating with her "philosophy". It is refreshing not to have to believe ignominious bullshit or falsehoods, whether produced by Ayn Rand or Joseph Smith.

Just googled Ayn Rand. Never heard of her. A quote I like from her I found says “ We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality”

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:50 am I'm fascinated with the moment of transition concept. Most postmos I talk to seem to have a precise moment when they reached the peak and started down the other side.

For me, it was more of an epiphany. That sudden moment of realization in my later teens regarding the Mormon story was probably related to an intermittent flash, when that area of the cerebral cortex that ties disparate information together for adults first comes online.

Epiphanies can be resparked by profound wisdom as well, such as this tidbit of Mormon reawakening: "It may be a fairy tale, but it is our fairy tale".


The ultimate Randian line was uttered by the character Gordon Gecko from the movie Wallstreet, "Greed is good".

2bizE wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:33 pm

LSOF wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:23 am Ayn Rand is altogether odious, misanthropic, and antisocial. I regret ever associating with her "philosophy". It is refreshing not to have to believe ignominious bullshit or falsehoods, whether produced by Ayn Rand or Joseph Smith.

Just googled Ayn Rand. Never heard of her. A quote I like from her I found says “ We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality”

Reading "Atlas Shrugged" was like wading through miles of bug/snake infested swamp to find the occasional orchid. You have to really, really love orchids.

2bizE wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:33 pm

LSOF wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:23 am Ayn Rand is altogether odious, misanthropic, and antisocial. I regret ever associating with her "philosophy". It is refreshing not to have to believe ignominious bullshit or falsehoods, whether produced by Ayn Rand or Joseph Smith.

Just googled Ayn Rand. Never heard of her. A quote I like from her I found says “ We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality”

Two reactions to this.

1. It's not true, even long-term. You can put the burden of evading reality on other people for many decades. All of us here are familiar with this.

2. I don't know whether I want it to be true.

Maybe it's true for most organizations in the very long term.

Reuben wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:43 pm

2bizE wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:33 pm

LSOF wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:23 am Ayn Rand is altogether odious, misanthropic, and antisocial. I regret ever associating with her "philosophy". It is refreshing not to have to believe ignominious bullshit or falsehoods, whether produced by Ayn Rand or Joseph Smith.

Just googled Ayn Rand. Never heard of her. A quote I like from her I found says “ We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality”

Two reactions to this.

1. It's not true, even long-term. You can put the burden of evading reality on other people for many decades. All of us here are familiar with this.

2. I don't know whether I want it to be true.

Maybe it's true for most organizations in the very long term.

A good example of this quote in evading reality is the Book of Abraham. For decades, the church evaded reality by claiming the BoA parchment was from Abraham denying what the world was saying that it was not from Abraham but was the book of breathing. Now the church is having to own denying that reality, which has been a key reason people are leaving the church.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:50 am I'm fascinated with the moment of transition concept. Most postmos I talk to seem to have a precise moment when they reached the peak and started down the other side. Or maybe more like a rubber band stretching tighter and tighter until it finally snaps. I can remember the exact second that happened to me. Some people just have a gradual line-upon-line acceptance, but for most there seems to be a resist-resist-resist-resist-SNAP-accept kind of pattern.

Can you relate?

Thanks for the podcast recommendation, Linked!

I had a couple moments that stick with me. I was dealing with people at work who were completely convinced about the root cause of an engineering problem, and were totally wrong. I thought, "If these people can be so wrong about something so provable, what are the chances my parents are right about something as unprovable as the claims of mormonism?" It didn't help that my parents have negative credibility with me.

Another was as I was driving to work one day around this same time I started wondering a bit and I started to say my morning prayer when I finally thought "Why am I doing this, no one is listening". It was the first time I could consciously admit to myself that I thought it unlikely that there is a god who listens to prayers.

They were 10 years ago, so who knows how my memory has changed them.

You bet on the podcast! I enjoy this one, especially the Thursday episodes where they host experts in various fields.

Corsair made me smile very largely as I was a huge Rush fan in H.S. and still am for that matter !!!