NOM

There was a comment on reddit that depending on which general authority you believe the plates either:
1- are buried in Hill Cumorah
2- are in a church vault
or
3- floated off into space and back to Kolob. Considering how long it takes to travel through space the plates may still be in orbit near Uranus.

So, is there an official stance on the location or fate of the Golden Plates?

I think the official stance is that the angel Moroni took them back and that from that point on it's just speculation as the church doesn't take a position on almost anything like that.

Clearly they are not in Hill Cumorah, so from a reality standpoint they had to have been put back into space headed towards Kolob.

It's just silly once you think about it, but I don't think there's *any* stance that the church has them in a vault, and while I think earlier leaders might have (maybe?) said they were back in the Hill, clearly at this point that has to have long been ruled out.

I would take the stance that this is starting with a false assumption.

What evidence to we have that there were actually "plates". Is that evidence reliable and convincing as opposed to alternative hypothesis like, I don't know, say...Joseph made it all up?

For me it is not. Once you realize that they likely never existed as described, then where they are is kind of mute.

-lost

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:03 pm I would take the stance that this is starting with a false assumption.

What evidence to we have that there were actually "plates". Is that evidence reliable and convincing as opposed to alternative hypothesis like, I don't know, say...Joseph made it all up?

For me it is not. Once you realize that they likely never existed as described, then where they are is kind of mute.

I agree with this, of course, but it still is interesting to see how the church portrays it in their teachings as well.

It's like the priesthood restoration or First Vision - looking at how the church portrays it against the actual history is both angering and fascinating.

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:03 pm I would take the stance that this is starting with a false assumption.

What evidence to we have that there were actually "plates". Is that evidence reliable and convincing as opposed to alternative hypothesis like, I don't know, say...Joseph made it all up?

For me it is not. Once you realize that they likely never existed as described, then where they are is kind of mute.

-lost

I hate to be that person, but the word is moot. Mute is someone who won’t talk, so forgive me for being the homonym police.

alas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:57 pm

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:03 pm I would take the stance that this is starting with a false assumption.

What evidence to we have that there were actually "plates". Is that evidence reliable and convincing as opposed to alternative hypothesis like, I don't know, say...Joseph made it all up?

For me it is not. Once you realize that they likely never existed as described, then where they are is kind of mute.

-lost

I hate to be that person, but the word is moot. Mute is someone who won’t talk, so forgive me for being the homonym police.

Nothing to forgive. Thank you for the correction. That is how we learn.

-lost

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:03 pm What evidence do we have that there were actually "plates". Is that evidence reliable and convincing as opposed to an alternative hypothesis like I don't know, say...Joseph made it all up?
-lost

Should we consider them to be in the phantom zone or perhaps regarded as Schrödinger's plates? Alfred Hitchcock might call the plates a MacGuffin, since it is an object that is necessary to the plot and the motivation of the characters, but insignificant, unimportant, or irrelevant in itself.

I tend to buy the argument that Joseph made a set of plates out of tin (or something). Wishful thinking, but I'd love to peek into the 1st Presidency vault and find the ultimate smoking gun - the tin plates.

Yobispo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:53 am I tend to buy the argument that Joseph made a set of plates out of tin (or something). Wishful thinking, but I'd love to peek into the 1st Presidency vault and find the ultimate smoking gun - the tin plates.

I absolutely believe that JS made fake plates that he could carry around covered up, but I have no possible belief that he kept them as it would've constantly been the one thing that could expose him.

He literally disposed of the body once he committed the fraud. My guess is that those plates are at the bottom of a lake or something nice and deep... and quite likely were pulled apart first so they would never be known as "the plates."

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:03 pm I would take the stance that this is starting with a false assumption.

What evidence to we have that there were actually "plates". Is that evidence reliable and convincing as opposed to alternative hypothesis like, I don't know, say...Joseph made it all up?

For me it is not. Once you realize that they likely never existed as described, then where they are is kind of mute.

-lost

I agree, there is no way the plates existed, I just find it curious that the biggest prop in mormonism and the church can't even come up with the final location of the plates.

Spicy McHaggis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:33 amI agree, there is no way the plates existed, I just find it curious that the biggest prop in mormonism and the church can't even come up with the final location of the plates.

Well... If you look at "true" history, the biggest prop in MORmONism is the Magick Rock™ that "produced" the Book of MORmON.

The church actually has that prop. They should be parading that rock around and showing it to everyone possible. Yet "leadership" has basically done everything in their power to hide the rock for almost 200 years.


Ok... Maybe it was Joe's hat that was actually magick? Did MORONi take the Magick Hat™ away also?

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:13 pm
Ok... Maybe it was Joe's hat that was actually magick? Did MORONi take the Magick Hat™ away also?

No. The special, magical hat ended up bringing Frosty the Snowman to life. Don't you watch Christmas specials??

hmb wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:45 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:13 pm
Ok... Maybe it was Joe's hat that was actually magick? Did MORONi take the Magick Hat™ away also?

No. The special, magical hat ended up bringing Frosty the Snowman to life. Don't you watch Christmas specials??

♫ There must have been some magick in that old white hat joe found ♫
♫ For when he placed his rock in it, it began to ??? ♫

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:52 pm

hmb wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:45 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:13 pm
Ok... Maybe it was Joe's hat that was actually magick? Did MORONi take the Magick Hat™ away also?

No. The special, magical hat ended up bringing Frosty the Snowman to life. Don't you watch Christmas specials??

♫ There must have been some magick in that old white hat joe found ♫
♫ For when he placed his rock in it, it began to ??? ♫

...mythically expound...

Oh, you beat me to it. Nice line. Love it.

I'm happily laughing.

I'm also laughing at the idea of mute plates. Not the spelling error, but that the plates stopped speaking, or were never verify locquacious in the first place, since all he ever really needed was a hat and a special rock.

The plates became a narrative plot hole.

Yobispo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:53 am I tend to buy the argument that Joseph made a set of plates out of tin (or something).

If so I don't think he needed to make an entire set. Most of the witnesses, outside of the testimonies that were written on their behalf, claimed only to have held a heavy object in either a box or wrapped up in a tablecloth. Emma's testimony of running her thumb across the pages is likely as unrelaiable as other statements she made in the same interview.

The reason I say he wouldn't have needed to make an entire set is because of the fraud he pulled at the Kirtland bank when he filled boxes with rocks and spread a thin layer of coins over the top to create the illusion that the boxes were filled with coins.

The 3 description by the 3 witnesses seems to be more of a Spiritual Eyes thing. Second hand quotes of Martin Harris, if true, say so pretty explicitly, and David Whitmer revealed in an interview that the angel who showed him the plates, "had no appearance or shape." When asked how it was that he could claim to have seen and heard an angel, Whitmer replied, "Have you never had impressions? Then you had impressions as the Quaker when the spirit moves, or as a good Methodist in giving a happy experience, a feeling?" "Just so" (Early Mormon Documents, 1: 603-05). James Henry Moyle, father of apostle Henry B. Moyle, visited David Whitmer in Missouri to record verification of the literalness of Whitmer’s experience. He wrote that he was disappointed by Whitmer’s testimony, which he found to be “unsatisfactory.”

Of course, there is always the possibility that that guy in Brazil really has the gold plates. He at least has photographs, so we should take him more seriously than any word of mouth drifting down from the 19th century.

Wait. What about all those witnesses who saw the plates with their spiritual eyes?