NOM

There have been too many intelligent minds spending too much time on politics lately, so I'm going to take a moment to request your help with my biggest family issue. In or out of the church.

Okay, now that the screaming and fainting has calmed down from reading the topic title , let's begin.

I briefly stated in another thread that I have a grandchild who got caught masturbating soon after they entered puberty. And now they are undergoing individual and group church therapy and their mother, my daughter, is watching them like a hawk.

This child already has physical, mental, and emotional characteristics that make it difficult for them. They are smaller in height than the peer group, they are extremely intelligent (genius level math skills), and they are backward socially. Now you throw in all of the hullabaloo over what should be a natural biological function, and you can imagine what's happening to the poor child.

They are in their middle to late teens now, and you can just see the neuroses bloom. I have talked to my daughter as carefully as I can but I've finally been told to back off.

They live several hundred miles from us, but I still try to show this child all the loving attention I can. What else can I do? This just feels like it has all the marks of a train wreck!

Thanks in advance for any suggestions,
River

When my son made the quiet comment one time that he really didn't want to go do baptisms for the dead with his friends, I realized that something might be going on.

I took him aside and asked what was going on and he indicated that he had had a problem with exciting himself.

Remembering how difficult this time can be in a young person's life and how much it can effect self image, my first inclination was to tell him he was NOT ALONE. I told him that masturbation is something that all males and some females have to deal with. I also told him very specifically that President Hinkley, Thomas S. Monson, and all the rest of the general authorities had masturbated at one time or another in their lives. I could visibly see the relief come across his face.

Being a TBM at the time, I encouraged him to visit with our Bishop about it (who luckily enough took a fairly benevolent view of the issue). I told my son it was a practice that he would be better off controlling but that controlling it would take a long time and not to be discouraged if he had the occasional slip up and not to shame himself over it.

Our Bishop gave him his recommend and he was able to participate.

Looking back I'm not sure I would have changed a lot of what I said. I think a little self discipline doesn't hurt in this department. Unfettered self stimulation can actually do some physical damage. And I'm of the opinion that young men (even those who are not members of the church) can feel a bit enslaved to their own bodies.

As far as your grandson, if there's a way you can make him feel as if he's going through a very normal passage of life, common to all humans that can be tremendously helpful. The trick will be doing it without violating his parents place as primary nurturers.

Wow, Palerider, it sounds like your son won the lottery in the parent and the bishop sweepstakes both!

Unfortunately my grandchild's bishop is not helping the situation. They live in what is euphemistically called Happy Valley, and if you live in Utah and maybe even if you don't, you will understand how that does not help the situation.

The next time we go up there, I will try to figure out some kind of activity that will allow a more private interaction with him so we can talk at least in generalities.

Thank you for helping with your experience and with your advice!

River

River Morgan2 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:07 am And now they are undergoing individual and group church therapy and their mother, my daughter, is watching them like a hawk.

In my opinion this is an extremely unhealthy response, especially for an intelligent, sensitive child. If you want a kid to develop an unhealthy obsession with sex and masturbation all you have to do is give them a big dose of shaming. Once you tell a kid they're a pervert, particularly because you "caught" them doing something that is normal, they are likely to think of themselves that way for a long time, and it can be direct path to self loathing.

One big problem is that the church isolates youth from such things to a degree that they think they are an outlier who does things that are worse than what everybody else is doing. Only the honest ones and the ones who get "caught" are shamed and punished. The ones who lie about it skate by on smooth ice.

I hear the church is developing recovery programs to overcome hunger, bowel movements, and bacon...

River Morgan2 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:07 am I briefly stated in another thread that I have a grandchild who got caught masturbating soon after they entered puberty. And now they are undergoing individual and group church therapy and their mother, my daughter, is watching them like a hawk.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions,
River

There are definite downsides to Mormonism, and subjecting a child to the crazier aspects of Mormonism is one of them. The only cause for concern is if the masturbation took place in public. Otherwise, it is a normal aspect of puberty and adulthood.

Don’t forget that Mormon guilt and shame starts in utero.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf ... 87.6.2.111

moksha wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:32 amOtherwise, it is a normal aspect of puberty and adulthood.

Just wondering here how penguins manage to do this? You know, without the ability to fly?

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:45 am

moksha wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:32 amOtherwise, it is a normal aspect of puberty and adulthood.

Just wondering here how penguins manage to do this? You know, without the ability to fly?

Have you noticed the proximity of the feet to the naughty bits?

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:45 am

moksha wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:32 amOtherwise, it is a normal aspect of puberty and adulthood.

Just wondering here how penguins manage to do this? You know, without the ability to fly?

What does masturbation have to do with flying??? I can't fly and I don't have any issue whatsoever with... Oh, wait... Dammit; My typing has betrayed me yet again.


River... Sorry for the levity.

My wish is that you could sit down with the parents and slap them around really hard with some science, reality, and wisdom. I know it's likely wouldn't change anything. Sadly situations like this can literally become life and death.

If you actually get time with the teen, heap on loads of acceptance and love and let them know they're just as worthy and normal as everyone else in their peer group, contrary to the brainwashed beliefs of the adult cultists in the teen's life.

First of all, wtfluff, it's good to see "your" face again. And the levity on this thread from you, moksha, 2bizE, Red Ryder, and Hagoth has been enjoyed and appreciated!

The advice from many of you has given me renewed hope that I can tackle this issue again with both grandchild and mother and make better results. (I can't tackle the issue with SIL and if I told you why it could be an identifying factor.)

Thank you again, and if anyone has more thoughts, please share with my gratitude.

River

wtfluff wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:42 pm If you actually get time with the teen, heap on loads of acceptance and love and let them know they're just as worthy and normal as everyone else in their peer group, contrary to the brainwashed beliefs of the adult cultists in the teen's life.

Yes, this.

Sexual climax has a variety of effects in the brain, but three potent ones are that it makes you feel good, makes you feel close or safe, and dulls pain - physical or emotional. But what if masturbation itself is made into a source of social isolation and emotional pain? You can get a feedback cycle: it can become one of its own causes.

So IMO wtfluff's suggestion would help break the cycle. We can rage against the situation your grandchild is in all we want, but it's probably not going to change. The best outcome is if he does what the purists who lead him want him to do, but with more self-compassion - especially when he "slips up," to keep the awful cycle of pain and release from restarting.

Any idea what might trigger a felt need for climax? Is he chronically understimulated; e.g. have ADHD, or needs intellectual interest or physical activity but isn't getting it? Often lonely? Often depressed or anxious? Addressing those things would help, too.

Reuben wrote: ↑Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:56 am Any idea what might trigger a felt need for climax? Is he chronically understimulated; e.g. have ADHD, or needs intellectual interest or physical activity but isn't getting it? Often lonely? Often depressed or anxious?

Or just human. I don't remember River saying that this was some kind of abnormally compulsive behavior, just that the kid got caught in the act. That could happen to any teenager, whether it's their first or 1000th time, whether they do it once a month or five times a day. But you make a good point Reuben. Kids don't masturbate because they want to sin or because they're rebelling against God, or because their testing the waters as a gateway to other sexual behaviors. They do it for very normal biological and psychological reasons.

They are undergoing dramatic changes and nature is pummeling them day and night with a powerful chemical hammer. They are using the only relief valve they have. Maybe the church should encourage that behavior to help young people avoid the sin that's "second only to murder."

Thank you for your post, Blashyrkh. (Did I get your name right?) You point out excellent thoughts for discussion.

Reuben, if I remember correctly, you have never posted often. But when you do - - you really get to the heart of things. And this time is no exception. First, you described him to a T and then made excellent points I think I can discuss with his mom! Maybe I'm seeing some credentialed advice. Either way, my sincere appreciation.

Thank you both,
River

I'm reminded of a experience from my puberty. Having been assigned in my 16th year to give a youth talk in sacrament meeting I was mortified when I slipped and masturbated just days before my talk. I was sure the spiritually sensitive members in my ward would know when I gave my talk that I was a creature of darkness who had not gone through repentance for what then seemed like the 2nd most grievous sin. I was somewhat surprised to have several venerable wards members tell me they "really felt the Spirit" while listening to my talk. This changed my previously held view that the spirit only operated through "pure" vessels.

Sorry that my recommendation comes after the holidays, but I think you'll appreciate the fantastic idea it is.

Give your daughter and her family vibrators and fleshlights for Christmas!

This is another reason I am glad I left. I don't know how I would deal with an overreacting spouse to something common and natural.

And now they are undergoing individual and group church therapy and their mother, my daughter, is watching them like a hawk.

They are going to turn the poor kid into a basket case of a self-loathing person for no good reason other than to satisfy some unreasonable fear of not having a perfect family/child. I blame the perfection ideal silliness that unfortunately haunts the church. Does the daughter want to do this for her son or for herself? If her son is her ultimate goal then she might reconsider what she is doing with all this therapy nonsense.

I was a young man at church when a speaker gave a talk on the perfection of the human body. He pointed out that if your elbow is stuck to your side, your arm is just long enough to reach your mouth. The human body is designed to feed itself according to this speaker. I was an adult when I realized that if your elbow is stuck to your side, there is another body part it can reach. What does that say about design? (I think it says a lot about natural selection, but that's a different post.)

I wish I had been more bold in telling my children that the church's teachings on masturbation are destructive.