NOM

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:34 am I certainly want to acknowledge that this stress in a marriage is difficult. I have to give a lot of credit to my wife for coming to some acceptance on my beliefs. She is largely not budging on her testimony, but she does not evaluate our relationship based on my belief.

I wish there was an easier way to get the believing spouses together for commiseration and support. Both sides of this debate are rarely going to change the beliefs of the other side, but certainly both sides could be more skillful in working together. The institutional LDS church is aggressively incompetent at this, of course. They are slow to acknowledge good ideas that did not originate within their ranks. We can't rely on the church to solve this for us.

I treat the LDS church like an expensive hobby that my wife enjoys. It's like she has a weekly Sunday tee-time for golf and she does pay for this privilege. I don't bad mouth either the LDS church or any other hobby she has. It does help that I have a high tolerance for attending church and do maintain an LDS facade for her. Ironically, it feels like we have to be the Christlike person in these relationships.

I don't know what your personal beliefs are, but I recommend that you retain some kind of reverence for Jesus, even if you have dropped all theistics beliefs. Jesus is the ultimate peace-loving hippie. There are Christian faiths that have virtually every view of Jesus possible. Stick with the Jesus associated with a simple reading of the Sermon on the Mount. This is radical love of virtually everyone. I truly don't care what you believe in. If you want to stay married to your TBM spouse, then being an ally of Radical Kindness Jesus will trump just about any LDS cultural requirement. If you retain a Christian devotion to Jesus then this will obviously be easier. You can get to the point where you can judge LDS cultural requirements against what Jesus would actually do.

Few Mormons truly study the New Testament. Take your seminary or mission scriptures and find those verses that are going to support the actual practices and beliefs that you want to exhibit in your family and life in general. Have those verses on hand. Read how Paul recommended that parents live with spouses and children of various belief levels. In 1 Corinthians 7:12-14 Paul is an ally of your marriage since this tells believing spouses to continue being married to non-believing spouses. This is a clear message that divorce is not warranted simply for non-belief.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:03 pm Corsair’s post is spot on.

My advice in this is mixed. Ready for it?

Divorce is absolutely an option. Maybe not the best option for your situation right now or ever, but just remember it’s a valid option. Keep that in mind and communicate it openly with her. This will allow yourself to fully evaluate your relationship and for her to understand that you will not just sit back and be controlled by fear of divorce. Your happiness in your marriage is worth fighting for but you’re not going to do it alone.

You will find that the church has indoctrinated us by using fear. If you leave the church.... these bad things will happen. If you don’t stay active, these things will happen. Well we know that is simply not true. So sit down with her and line out your core beliefs. Explain to her what leaving the church looks like to you. I echo Corsair’s advice on maintaining some sort of reverence for Jesus only because it freaks people out of you become an atheist. At most just become an apathetic agnostic.

Lay out your core beliefs and paint a picture of what she can expect from you. Commit to her and your family. If that means supporting her by helping with kids at church then do that. Promise her that you will not drink without her approval if she is fearful of alcohol. Take things slow and be open with her. Do not hide secrets because when they come out (and they usually do) it will only enforce the church narrative that people who leave the church lose their integrity.

Decide your level of participation. I refused to let other men be a surrogate church father to my wife and kids. That meant I did the baptisms, confirmations, and ordinances. Sometimes it was a struggle but I looked at it as a right of passage or cultural milestone for my kids. You’d do the same if you were catholic, or Lutheran, or whatever.

Don’t allow the church to make you the second class father sitting in the back in your blue shirt, jeans, and sneakers. Own the role as priesthood advisor to your family and use the ordinances to lay your hands on their heads and give them the best fatherly advice ever. I skipped the cookie cutter routine stuff you always hear and gave heartfelt meaningful advice that I wanted to give. Ironically people always complimented me on how beautiful my ordinations and blessings were. That’s because they were MY words, not the scripted church narrative. F that. I’ll say what I want. Reminds me of the time I gave my FIL a blessing and told him God didn’t create our bodies to be lazy and that he needed to exercise and workout.

Next step, is to become indifferent towards the church. Sister RR gets mad when I make fun of Mormons or bag on the doctrine and leaders. They feel personally stacked even though you are attacking the church and not her. Just become indifferent to the church. Vent here at NOM.

Third step, is to be the best damn husband and father you can be. Again prove that the church is wrong. You can leave the church and still be happy. Living your best life is the best revenge. Prove them wrong. Point out that the church lives in fear, you live in reality and are happy.

Sometimes this takes years and is a process you have to constantly think through. But you’re not stuck, stuck! you just have to strategically decide to live your life with a TBM even though you no longer are. There will be frustrating times but you can make it work. You just have to realize you are now playing on hard mode instead of Sunday school answer mode.

Last thing I will say is to find help through therapy if needed.

For Sister RR and I, we eventually went to marriage counseling and learned quickly that neither of us wanted to get divorced and that my unbelief wasn’t a deal breaker. So we had to figure out how to make it the new normal. Now that doesn’t mean everything is easy peesey now. It just means we communicate more and offer empathy. “I know it sucks, I’m sorry, but I still feel the way I do about the church... This isn’t any easier for me than it is for you... let’s go get ice cream!”

You have to reduce the size of the church wedge between you. It will never go away but it can be significantly reduced if you always take the high road and don’t instigate a fight over it.

Here’s the magic sauce recipe I paid the therapist $1,500 for. You can have it for free:

One of the best things that came out of therapy was the ability to communicate better. It was hard. Still is but here’s a simple way to start. Every night, start with 2 simple questions.

1. What was the highlight of your day?
2. What could have gone better?

Then sit back and listen. Don’t argue or defend. Just listen. Then reciprocate the questions asked and give your answers.

After a few weeks you will notice that you begin to have open conversations without the format. When you get to this point then you can add two more questions:

3. How’s our emotional connection?
4. How’s our sexual connection?

You’ll find that a happy marriage becomes more about the two of you and less about the church differences. So focus on making your marria ge happy. You’ll still disagree, but now you know how to fight, communicate to resolve, and have great make up sex!

If you want to know more about our therapy consider looking up The Gottman Sound Relationship House.

“Advocate” wrote: 4) Be comfortable not caring about the church. When I first told my wife about my changed beliefs based information I hadn't seen before, I was listening to podcasts and reading on the internet all the time. Constantly hearing about the many ways the church and church leaders fall short was driving me nuts and making me difficult to live with. So I decided to stop caring about it. I no longer listen to podcasts about the church, NOM is the only church-related thing on the internet I read (because I love the people and these sort of discussions), and I am much happier for it.

SaidNobody wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:29 am I've been away from UT about 25 years now. You can take the kid out of the cult, but you can't take the cult out the kid, eh?

In my search for truth, I learned that what I THOUGHT was the truth, wasn't the truth at all. Like, you think, "did God really talk to a farm kid in NY? I mean, seriously, a New Yorker, HA, not likely."

What I learned about the truth is that Family is the most important thing to me. Whether Jesus and God had parts and passions really doesn't hug the kids, or train the dog not piss on the carpet. Keeping that stuff real becomes the truth you really want.

But what is Mormonism known for? Weird underwear? Secret Temple rituals? Good posture? These things are fun, but Mormons are really known for their families. If you meet a Mormon, you know their first priority is the well-being of their children. You know if you went to family dinner, there would be clean faces, relatively orderly discussion, rather low drama.

The truth about Mormonism isn't in the doctrine, it's in the product. Some people are horrified that some farmers/gardeners still put cow-shit on their corps. Like, why the hell would you do that? Because it makes them grow, am I right?

For years I have come to these boards and have my heart break as people give up their dreams because they couldn't see past the shit. It has it's function. I know it isn't easy, or perfect. Raising kids is hard, no matter where you do it, or who you do it with. At least, it's hard if you care. Almost everyday I wish I had a church that would work for my family, but wife is Catholic, and my child a heathen goddess.

I know from extensive research that most of Mormon doctrine and beliefs probably aren't what they claim to be. But I could also show you truth in almost any scripture or tenant of the faith. If you think crossing over into the world without angels and Gods will make you do better, it doesn't get easier to make a strong family. There are some crazy people out there, like one dude that killed his wife and daughter because God told him too. That's not on God, that on him. God is what you make of him, whether you believe in him or not. But I can tell you for sure, when you go looking for yourself, your true self, you will be well served by a quality belief in a loving God.

The words, "Know thyself" is what spawns most quests to find God. You can be anywhere, in any situation, or condition. But seeking God often asks the same question everyone is asked at death, "did I do the best I could with what I had?"

It's possible to respect someone that has different beliefs. But respesting means not putting their beliefs down. Many of my old friends on here would get so frustrated that they had deal with a partner that wanted to go church, or help in the church, or pay a tithe, (that can be tricky) but it doesn't have to be frustrating. What if your partner was an alcholic and they were going to AA meetings? Would you abandon them, throw them to wolves? Wait! Shit. Being Mormon you probably don't know about AA and would probably throw your partner aside.

Anyway. Don't look for truth that is logical as much as it is functional. Some of the best people I've met and admire are Mormon. It can be a good program, produce excellent results, a good family and good people.

stuck wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:11 pm Hey guys thanks for the thoughts and advice. I should try to be more honest with her too. This is hard for me on some things like paying tithing and drinking coffee. She just found out I had been drinking coffee and had a bit of a melt down even though I told her I had been drinking coffee six months ago. I guess she assumed I would stop. I do have a heart arrythmia though and am thinking it may be better for my heart if I quit, so I will try and see.

Tithing I am into the paying on the "interest" or spending money, but lately haven't paid for a few months. But I figured maybe I would be ok saying I am a full tithe payor because I paid on my gross for most of my lifetime. This is something I don't really want to discuss unless I have to. But if I do I suppose I can try to negotiate and perhaps pay on half of the net? Do you guys have any thoughts or experience on this?

stuck wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:16 pm Thank you Alas, those are some great ideas. Now I just have to get the guts to speak with her about it.