NOM

Helmeth Hübener was the young Mormon boy who protested against the Nazis and became the youngest person ever executed by the Nazis. He was even excommunicated by the Church for being anti-Nazi. (The Stake President who did the ex-communication later emigrated to the US and worked for the Church).

The Hübener story became known and was celebrated by some Mormons not steeped in the LDS/Nazi connection. A professor at BYU wrote a play about Hübener which became an overnight sensation and the one-night performance was extended to two weeks. On the twelfth night, Elder Thomas S. Monson and BYU President Dallin Oaks attended the play. They were not happy.

After the war, the Church had taken in a lot of German refugees, many of whom were members of the Nazi party, had fought in the war, and some of who were even members of the SS who had run the concentration camps and crematoriums. To them, Hübener was a traitor to the Fatherland because he disobeyed the LDS 12th article of faith about being loyal to murderous dictators. They contacted Elder Monson because of his long association with Germany.

The play was ordered to be shut down. The BYU playwright was ordered to not show or allow his play to be reproduced again. The Third Reich had a win from the grave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yod6VoT4arg

Interesting find birdman! There were many in the church that were into the eugenics and belief of the superior white race. If you are ever in small Mormon communities, check out the antic shops, likely to find mormon authored books about it on the shelves. Somewhere I have one called God's Chosen Race; was a shocker for me to see this publication and solidify the racism in the church that I really never understood as a kid.

Blech. Hübener was a hero. His local leaders were Nazis. But not surprising I guess that the Brethren came down on the playwright on something that made the Church look bad. I wouldn't expect anything else from them, they don't recognize true courage and heroism unless they think it serves their purposes. Cretins.

My Dad who served in germany and likes german history had a different take on the Hubener story when I confronted him about it in my very angry phase. His very humanistic approach was that the saints simply adapted so they didn't go extinct. The herd did what they had to do to survive. They compartmentalized like all mormons do and made it through the regime terror.

This of course does not downplay the heroics of Hubener and his buddies nor does it excuse the church leaders reprehensible behavior. But gawd damn, what would most average people do to keep their heads intact? Exactly what they did.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:43 am My Dad who served in germany and likes german history had a different take on the Hubener story when I confronted him about it in my very angry phase. His very humanistic approach was that the saints simply adapted so they didn't go extinct. The herd did what they had to do to survive. They compartmentalized like all mormons do and made it through the regime terror.

This of course does not downplay the heroics of Hubener and his buddies nor does it excuse the church leaders reprehensible behavior. But gawd damn, what would most average people do to keep their heads intact? Exactly what they did.

This is my take on it. The church basically sacrificed Hübener to keep the Nazis off the backs of Mormons the way it sent any group they suspected of opposing them off to concentration camps. Once you become friends with Germans who lived through Hitler coming to power and they share their stories, you see things a little less black and white. As one couple told DH and me, it was “support the Nazis or die.“ some of them picked “or die” while some had family to protect and decided support the Nazis was the least bad.

I doubt church leaders were gung ho Nazis. Hubener was a hero. Church leaders were more like CYA


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FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:43 am The herd did what they had to do to survive. They compartmentalized like all Mormons do and made it through the regime terror.

I certainly do not blame the German Mormons for kowtowing to the Nazis. Just look at the religious group known as the Jehovah's Witnesses. An estimated 1,000 German Jehovah's Witnesses died or were murdered in concentration camps and prisons during the Nazi era, as did 400 Witnesses from other invaded countries. In addition, at least 273 Jehovah's Witnesses were sentenced to death by military courts for refusing military service were executed. Mormon Saints served in the German army and some as SS troops in the concentration camps where they may have helped liquidate those JW's who would not serve the Fuehrer as per Article 12.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:43 am My Dad who served in germany and likes german history had a different take on the Hubener story when I confronted him about it in my very angry phase. His very humanistic approach was that the saints simply adapted so they didn't go extinct. The herd did what they had to do to survive. They compartmentalized like all mormons do and made it through the regime terror.

This of course does not downplay the heroics of Hubener and his buddies nor does it excuse the church leaders reprehensible behavior. But gawd damn, what would most average people do to keep their heads intact? Exactly what they did.

I will admit that it is easy to sit here in the U.S. in 2020 and armchair quarterback the Germans of the 1930s, but you know, the Church loves to tells us all to "do what is right let the consequence follow" and raised us all on the story of Abinadi's martyrdom and indoctrinated us with hundreds of Children's Friend stories about little kids who got socially ostracized for standing up for what they believed in (although they usually found a way to give these unrealistic stories unrealistic happy endings). President Hinckley admonished us to "stand for something". We all heard Joseph F. Smith's “Yes siree; dyed in the wool; true blue, through and through” story as something we should emulate.

So what does the Church do when confronted with the courageous story of a young LDS kid who actually did that against an evil, oppressive, murderous regime? They suppress it because it makes their leaders look bad. One of the problems I have with this situation is that the Church did what it always does - teaches us one thing, but does another itself.

In the past four years I have learned for myself how easily some people ignore the red flags and warning signs and end up supporting oppressive totalitarian leaders who stoke divisions and demonize vulnerable minorities. Early on the Germans of 1930 knew Hitler was a charismatic demagogue bully with a violent goon squad who didn't mind riding a wave of bigotry to power - perhaps the absolute destitution of the German people mitigates their culpability somewhat, but the red flags were there, they knew what he was when they voted him into power. They grasped onto his promise of a German renaissance, but they saw with their eyes the price he would make them pay to get it ahead of time. The signs were there for all to see. And they supported the demagogue anyway. Not unlike what is happening in the U.S. right now. It may be true that under the Nazis the herd reached a point where it did what it had to in order to survive, but it was the herd who voted the Nazis into power in the first place. The Germans had their chance to take a stand against Nazism, and instead handed them the keys to the kingdom.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:44 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:43 am My Dad who served in germany and likes german history had a different take on the Hubener story when I confronted him about it in my very angry phase. His very humanistic approach was that the saints simply adapted so they didn't go extinct. The herd did what they had to do to survive. They compartmentalized like all mormons do and made it through the regime terror.

This of course does not downplay the heroics of Hubener and his buddies nor does it excuse the church leaders reprehensible behavior. But gawd damn, what would most average people do to keep their heads intact? Exactly what they did.

I will admit that it is easy to sit here in the U.S. in 2020 and armchair quarterback the Germans of the 1930s, but you know, the Church loves to tells us all to "do what is right let the consequence follow" and raised us all on the story of Abinadi's martyrdom and indoctrinated us with hundreds of Children's Friend stories about little kids who got socially ostracized for standing up for what they believed in (although they usually found a way to give these unrealistic stories unrealistic happy endings). President Hinckley admonished us to "stand for something". We all heard Joseph F. Smith's “Yes siree; dyed in the wool; true blue, through and through” story as something we should emulate.

So what does the Church do when confronted with the courageous story of a young LDS kid who actually did that against an evil, oppressive, murderous regime? They suppress it because it makes their leaders look bad. One of the problems I have with this situation is that the Church did what it always does - teaches us one thing, but does another itself.

In the past four years I have learned for myself how easily some people ignore the red flags and warning signs and end up supporting oppressive totalitarian leaders who stoke divisions and demonize vulnerable minorities. Early on the Germans of 1930 knew Hitler was a charismatic demagogue bully with a violent goon squad who didn't mind riding a wave of bigotry to power - perhaps the absolute destitution of the German people mitigates their culpability somewhat, but the red flags were there, they knew what he was when they voted him into power. They grasped onto his promise of a German renaissance, but they saw with their eyes the price he would make them pay to get it ahead of time. The signs were there for all to see. And they supported the demagogue anyway. Not unlike what is happening in the U.S. right now. It may be true that under the Nazis the herd reached a point where it did what it had to in order to survive, but it was the herd who voted the Nazis into power in the first place. The Germans had their chance to take a stand against Nazism, and instead handed them the keys to the kingdom.

The Germans who we talked with when we lived in Berlin will tell you (well, they are probably dead by now, but they told us back when) that yes, on some level they knew. But they also saw that he was putting food on their tables. Unlike tRump, who is a bully and dictator, and is doing nothing but screwing up the country, Hitler did a lot of good. The people went from literally starving to thriving. That was why they ignored his bully tactics and put up with the bigotry. Because he started car manufacturing, and got the factories going again. Volkswagen, Pourche, they are companies he started. So, at first it was support Hitler or eat grass. They went from starving to power under Hitler.

That is something we arm chair Americans don’t understand. He did one hell of a lot of good pulling them out of the mess left after WWI.

But the people we talked to have reckoned with their mistake in supporting him. We were in Berlin in 73, so not that long after the war compared to now. And when they would talk about it, you could still see the struggle, of “what else could we have done?” But they had accepted that collectively they made a bad mistake and they put up memorials of “never again”.

That is what the church refuses to do. Accept that their leaders can make mistakes. All they would have to do is accept that the Mormons in Germany in the 30s-40s were human and wanted to survive. They as adults with families didn’t feel they could risk going against the Nazis. See how easy. They were human. Accept that being human is ummmm...normal and accept that they are also human. But no. They get bent out of shape because a play paints a young boy, who history showed was right, and brave, as hero against the low level church leaders as the bad guys. But sometimes we humans end up on the wrong side of history. We make mistakes. Then we struggle with the mistake and say “never again”. The top church leaders refuse to see a mistake as a mistake. Nope, it is proof they are not perfect and they can’t stand that, so they can’t/won’t repent.

That is where the church keeps screwing up. Over and over. Any mistake is proof they are human instead of supper prophets with a big letter “p” on their chest. They are too proud of “propheting” to admit they are human and repent of mistakes.

alas wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:48 am

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:44 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:43 am My Dad who served in germany and likes german history had a different take on the Hubener story when I confronted him about it in my very angry phase. His very humanistic approach was that the saints simply adapted so they didn't go extinct. The herd did what they had to do to survive. They compartmentalized like all mormons do and made it through the regime terror.

This of course does not downplay the heroics of Hubener and his buddies nor does it excuse the church leaders reprehensible behavior. But gawd damn, what would most average people do to keep their heads intact? Exactly what they did.

I will admit that it is easy to sit here in the U.S. in 2020 and armchair quarterback the Germans of the 1930s, but you know, the Church loves to tells us all to "do what is right let the consequence follow" and raised us all on the story of Abinadi's martyrdom and indoctrinated us with hundreds of Children's Friend stories about little kids who got socially ostracized for standing up for what they believed in (although they usually found a way to give these unrealistic stories unrealistic happy endings). President Hinckley admonished us to "stand for something". We all heard Joseph F. Smith's “Yes siree; dyed in the wool; true blue, through and through” story as something we should emulate.

So what does the Church do when confronted with the courageous story of a young LDS kid who actually did that against an evil, oppressive, murderous regime? They suppress it because it makes their leaders look bad. One of the problems I have with this situation is that the Church did what it always does - teaches us one thing, but does another itself.

In the past four years I have learned for myself how easily some people ignore the red flags and warning signs and end up supporting oppressive totalitarian leaders who stoke divisions and demonize vulnerable minorities. Early on the Germans of 1930 knew Hitler was a charismatic demagogue bully with a violent goon squad who didn't mind riding a wave of bigotry to power - perhaps the absolute destitution of the German people mitigates their culpability somewhat, but the red flags were there, they knew what he was when they voted him into power. They grasped onto his promise of a German renaissance, but they saw with their eyes the price he would make them pay to get it ahead of time. The signs were there for all to see. And they supported the demagogue anyway. Not unlike what is happening in the U.S. right now. It may be true that under the Nazis the herd reached a point where it did what it had to in order to survive, but it was the herd who voted the Nazis into power in the first place. The Germans had their chance to take a stand against Nazism, and instead handed them the keys to the kingdom.

The Germans who we talked with when we lived in Berlin will tell you (well, they are probably dead by now, but they told us back when) that yes, on some level they knew. But they also saw that he was putting food on their tables. Unlike tRump, who is a bully and dictator, and is doing nothing but screwing up the country, Hitler did a lot of good. The people went from literally starving to thriving. That was why they ignored his bully tactics and put up with the bigotry. Because he started car manufacturing, and got the factories going again. Volkswagen, Pourche, they are companies he started. So, at first it was support Hitler or eat grass. They went from starving to power under Hitler.

That is something we arm chair Americans don’t understand. He did one hell of a lot of good pulling them out of the mess left after WWI.

But the people we talked to have reckoned with their mistake in supporting him. We were in Berlin in 73, so not that long after the war compared to now. And when they would talk about it, you could still see the struggle, of “what else could we have done?” But they had accepted that collectively they made a bad mistake and they put up memorials of “never again”.

That is what the church refuses to do. Accept that their leaders can make mistakes. All they would have to do is accept that the Mormons in Germany in the 30s-40s were human and wanted to survive. They as adults with families didn’t feel they could risk going against the Nazis. See how easy. They were human. Accept that being human is ummmm...normal and accept that they are also human. But no. They get bent out of shape because a play paints a young boy, who history showed was right, and brave, as hero against the low level church leaders as the bad guys. But sometimes we humans end up on the wrong side of history. We make mistakes. Then we struggle with the mistake and say “never again”. The top church leaders refuse to see a mistake as a mistake. Nope, it is proof they are not perfect and they can’t stand that, so they can’t/won’t repent.

That is where the church keeps screwing up. Over and over. Any mistake is proof they are human instead of supper prophets with a big letter “p” on their chest. They are too proud of “propheting” to admit they are human and repent of mistakes.

Well, I with a family with food on the table am probably too quick to judge the people of Germany in the 30s who didn't, I will admit that freely. It probably isn't fair of me to pretend I would have done any different. I suppose what sets me off is we have an opportunity to learn from their mistake, but I see too many people ignoring the same warning signs. And props to Germany for disavowing its Nazi past though - we Americans are not so willing to disavow some of our historical dirty laundry.

I agree completely that the Church has a toxic inability to admit it has ever been the slightest bit wrong about anything. In a way I am glad the Church excommunicated Heimeth Hubener - the Church doesn't deserve him.

One of my teenage daughters was ticked when she ran across this story. The only times that the LDS church has espoused unpopular political views it has lost and then engendered more animosity from the public at large. This includes polygamy, statehood issues, ERA opposition, Prop 8 opposition, and others. The church is not getting open support from most Evangelicals or Catholics because of the inherent heresy of core LDS doctrines.

It would have been amazing if the LDS church could have sheltered or supported Helmuth Hebener. We would have regular retellings of his story in the The New Era and Sunday School lessons. Instead, it reflects poorly on the church.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:43 am My Dad who served in germany and likes german history had a different take on the Hubener story when I confronted him about it in my very angry phase. His very humanistic approach was that the saints simply adapted so they didn't go extinct. The herd did what they had to do to survive. They compartmentalized like all mormons do and made it through the regime terror.

This of course does not downplay the heroics of Hubener and his buddies nor does it excuse the church leaders reprehensible behavior. But gawd damn, what would most average people do to keep their heads intact? Exactly what they did.

Like everyone else, I don't blame the German Mormons for keeping their heads down and surviving. However, the actions of church leaders after the war to cover up the story are reprehensible. That play should never have been shut down.

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:51 pm It would have been amazing if the LDS church could have sheltered or supported Helmuth Hebener. We would have regular retellings of his story in the The New Era and Sunday School lessons. Instead, it reflects poorly on the church.

I was given a book about Hubener when I was young. I can't remember what it was called, but it was available at Deseret Book. I can no longer find the book, but I am sure that it made no mention of his excommunication. It was a faith affirming story of heroism. I think the church has a complicated history with respect to telling the story.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:44 am I will admit that it is easy to sit here in the U.S. in 2020 and armchair quarterback the Germans of the 1930s, but you know, the Church loves to tells us all to "do what is right let the consequence follow"...

We all have our separate read on current history and mine is that the Church is facing one of those "do what is right" moments in the coming election. I suspect they will not do what is right.

alas wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:48 am That is where the church keeps screwing up. Over and over. Any mistake is proof they are human instead of supper prophets with a big letter “p” on their chest. They are too proud of “propheting” to admit they are human and repent of mistakes.

This is the #1 reason I'm out. I can accept mistakes. Huge ones! But I won't put myself in the power of anyone who must always be right and good and the best at everything that matters, period, no matter what.

I've told my kids that the best way to know whether you can trust someone is to carefully watch what they do when they inevitably mess up. Admit it and fix it? Trust. Avoid, deflect, and finally come clean? Wait and see. Blame others, bend reality, and gather allies against any accusers? Run, fast. They will screw you over without a second thought to preserve their perfect self-image. It should take less than a month to figure it out.

I've told my wife that my criteria for taking the church seriously again is that its leaders apologize for something - anything at all. Until then, it's just another narcissist to avoid and clean up after.

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:17 am

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:44 am I will admit that it is easy to sit here in the U.S. in 2020 and armchair quarterback the Germans of the 1930s, but you know, the Church loves to tells us all to "do what is right let the consequence follow"...

We all have our separate read on current history and mine is that the Church is facing one of those "do what is right" moments in the coming election. I suspect they will not do what is right.

I suspect you are right as well. We need to look no further than Elder Cook's recent comments to see evidence of that - they guy couldn't even make a gesture of vague support that "“We all support peaceful efforts to overcome racial and social injustice. This needs to be accomplished" without blathering on about the religious freedom bogeyman and defending one of the most notorious racists in all of Church history.

The Church will do what it can to appear to be taking a stand without really doing so, offering poorly-defined general statements that could be interpreted to support either side, and generally being the wishy-washy non-force it always is for any cause that isn't discriminating against the LGBTQ+ community. If there was ever a time when Church members in the U.S. needed moral clarity from their Church leaders it is now, and they aren't going to get it.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:43 am The Church will do what it can to appear to be taking a stand without really doing so, offering poorly-defined general statements that could be interpreted to support either side, and generally being the wishy-washy non-force it always is for any cause that isn't discriminating against the LGBTQ+ community. If there was ever a time when Church members in the U.S. needed moral clarity from their Church leaders it is now, and they aren't going to get it.

LDS leadership does not want to cause rifts with either DezNat on the far right or from groups like Mormons Building Bridges on the left. Groups like Sistas in Zion are certainly in a complicated position where they are probably more sympathetic to BLM than, say, DezNat. Finding the right message to the various leanings of the faithful is the kind of thing that Jesus would be most qualified for. It's also what we are effectively told is the job of a Prophet. The latest Proclamation in April 2020 is hardly the kind of reassurance we are looking for.

Corsair wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:50 pm

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:43 am The Church will do what it can to appear to be taking a stand without really doing so, offering poorly-defined general statements that could be interpreted to support either side, and generally being the wishy-washy non-force it always is for any cause that isn't discriminating against the LGBTQ+ community. If there was ever a time when Church members in the U.S. needed moral clarity from their Church leaders it is now, and they aren't going to get it.

LDS leadership does not want to cause rifts with either DezNat on the far right or from groups like Mormons Building Bridges on the left. Groups like Sistas in Zion are certainly in a complicated position where they are probably more sympathetic to BLM than, say, DezNat. Finding the right message to the various leanings of the faithful is the kind of thing that Jesus would be most qualified for. It's also what we are effectively told is the job of a Prophet. The latest Proclamation in April 2020 is hardly the kind of reassurance we are looking for.

I think the church is backed into the same rough spot as the Republican Party. There is years and years of party loyalty, the repubiscams being traditionally against such “evils” as Gay marriage, abortion, deficit spending, and socialism, (now being called Marxism to make it sound more evil and ungodly than just socialism). But then you have Trump, who violates every ethical standard there is. He has probably paid for a few abortion, seeing as how he doesn’t know how to keep his pants zipped up. We know he has paid prostitutes to keep quiet. We know he has multiple charges of rape against him, as well as many charges of refusing to pay employees, fraud, conspiracy against the US, that because he pays people to keep quiet, could not be proven beyond a shadow...he is obviously atheist, although he lies about belief in God, it also cannot be proven he has ever set foot in a worship service of any religion. His incompetence is destroying the US, as well as all his hate speech. But what is a loyal republiscam supposed to do. Support Republican principles, or support the direction the republiscams are headed? So, when over half of church members are more loyal to a crook than they are to church leaders, exactly what are those church leaders supposed to do? Come out and say, “hey, guys, tRump is a racist, atheist, crook?” The only thing so far that I have seen is that some republiscams are unhappy now that Fox News has admitted that tRump said some horrible things about our fallen war heroes.

Hey, I am the wife of a career military who has said multiple times, “thank God I am not still active duty with him as commander in chief, because I could not follow him the way he openly disrespects the military.” And this was just when he said very rude things about McCain as a POW.

I saw a Facebook post the other day that said, “I am sorry to say this, but when I see an American flag in your profile, I automatically assume you are racist.” Pretty sad when tRump supporters, by their attachment to symbols of America, rather than the principles it was based on, turn the American flag into a symbol of racism. But that is what tRump is doing to America.

And the church, traditionally standing for anti abortion, (although when you actually LOOK at what the church policy is, it is more prochoice than anti any and all abortion.) Currently standing for anti LGBT, anti communism/socialism, ......and maybe I should just say Mormons have never recovered their senses after Bennet and his John Birch insanity with coming out that civil rights for “the negro” is a communist plot, feminism is a communist plot to destroy families, worker unions are a communist plot, we have got to adopt the strategies of the communists in order to fight them.

My union, Democrat Dad used to say that Bennet was more evil than the communists he was fighting, and more racist than the KKK.

Anyway, seriously, I feel kind of bad for church leaders who supported what they saw as principles, and tRump has turned them all into empty lies.

Turns out, when you dig in your heals with the idea that the 1950s social structure is HOW GOD SET UP THE WORLD, that the world keeps right on progressing without you and a *con man* comes along and uses your principles as a tool to manipulate you into supporting evil.

So, yeah, I feel kind of sorry for the poor suckers leading the church. They done been had by a con man.