NOM

In psychology "grit" is defined as "perseverance and passion for long-term goals" by Angela Duckworth. She is a research psychologist who has concluded that grit is a better predictor of success than intellectual talent. This seems pretty intuitive; persevering in efforts toward a goal makes one more likely to reach a goal than not persevering. Mormonism makes it difficult to summon the grit to do great things due to its rigid role for women, and time and energy required for all participants.

With the church's focus on women becoming mothers and that nothing should be more important, it is difficult for mormon women to develop long-term goals that might take some of the focus away from motherhood. Even if the goals are in place, motherhood takes a huge effort, and it can be difficult to maintain the perseverance and passion to accomplish those goals.

All mormons are subject to the teaching that they should put god (the church) first in their lives. They are then expected to devote enormous amounts of time to personal study, performing callings, sharing the gospel, and much more. Placing the church first can make it difficult to develop passion for other goals. The other goals may conflict with the church, and even if they don't, putting the church first can sap one's passion. The demands of church callings can make it difficult to persevere in effort toward accomplishing other goals. The time and energy taken for church callings takes away from a person's time and energy. Some callings require complete abandonment of most other goals (mission, RSP, Bishop, MP, GA, etc.).

Angela Duckworth was recently on the Armchair Expert podcast and got me thinking about grit and my life. I feel like trying to be a good mormon may have prevented me from being better at other things. I think I am starting to have enough space in my life to do more and it is nice. But it is hard to look back at the years I did less.

Grits and Mormonism would make a wonderful breakfast special at the BYU Cougareat. Eggs any style with sliced bologna and a hearty scoop of grits.

The Church is a parasite. It sucks away your time, energy, passion, and devotion, and it insatiable, never-ending, overwhelming demands. As my kids drifted farther from Mormonism, I used to occasionally worry that they would have problems finding stability and direction in life without it, and I would have to quickly remind myself that the stability and direction provided by slavish devotion to a false, manipulative, unreasonably demanding, deceptive, and easily disprovable belief system is far worse than them taking some time to find the direction and stability that works best for them. I don't have those moments of worry anymore.

The Church steals grit from its members. It absorbs all the grit they have and leaves little for anything else. It was a hard lesson for me to learn, but the Church cares about nothing other than itself, it will take everything it can from you and it will still never be enough.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:38 am The Church is a parasite. It sucks away your time, energy, passion, and devotion, and it insatiable, never-ending, overwhelming demands. As my kids drifted farther from Mormonism, I used to occasionally worry that they would have problems finding stability and direction in life without it, and I would have to quickly remind myself that the stability and direction provided by slavish devotion to a false, manipulative, unreasonably demanding, deceptive, and easily disprovable belief system is far worse than them taking some time to find the direction and stability that works best for them. I don't have those moments of worry anymore.

The Church steals grit from its members. It absorbs all the grit they have and leaves little for anything else. It was a hard lesson for me to learn, but the Church cares about nothing other than itself, it will take everything it can from you and it will still never be enough.

Very well said. My disaffection wasn’t because of the history or Joseph Smith being a fraud, but because me exhausting myself trying to meet the church’s standards was never good enough. No matter how hard I tried, it was never enough.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:38 am The Church is a parasite. It sucks away your time, energy, passion, and devotion, and it insatiable, never-ending, overwhelming demands. As my kids drifted farther from Mormonism, I used to occasionally worry that they would have problems finding stability and direction in life without it, and I would have to quickly remind myself that the stability and direction provided by slavish devotion to a false, manipulative, unreasonably demanding, deceptive, and easily disprovable belief system is far worse than them taking some time to find the direction and stability that works best for them. I don't have those moments of worry anymore.

NBI, your insights are appreciated. I really needed to hear/read this today!

I’ve been having some mental blocks dealing with this hang up and my kids. The indoctrine runs so deep that these nagging thoughts haven’t left my brain yet.

Great post Link!

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:38 am The Church is a parasite. It sucks away your time, energy, passion, and devotion, and it insatiable, never-ending, overwhelming demands. As my kids drifted farther from Mormonism, I used to occasionally worry that they would have problems finding stability and direction in life without it, and I would have to quickly remind myself that the stability and direction provided by slavish devotion to a false, manipulative, unreasonably demanding, deceptive, and easily disprovable belief system is far worse than them taking some time to find the direction and stability that works best for them. I don't have those moments of worry anymore.

The Church steals grit from its members. It absorbs all the grit they have and leaves little for anything else. It was a hard lesson for me to learn, but the Church cares about nothing other than itself, it will take everything it can from you and it will still never be enough.

Point well taken, and I wish that more members would realize that the church does not build up grit or enhance it - the church diminishes it.
Thanks for bringing this up --- Wndr.

With the church's focus on women becoming mothers and that nothing should be more important, it is difficult for mormon women to develop long-term goals that might take some of the focus away from motherhood. Even if the goals are in place, motherhood takes a huge effort, and it can be difficult to maintain the perseverance and passion to accomplish those goals.

All mormons are subject to the teaching that they should put god (the church) first in their lives. They are then expected to devote enormous amounts of time to personal study, performing callings, sharing the gospel, and much more. Placing the church first can make it difficult to develop passion for other goals. The other goals may conflict with the church, and even if they don't, putting the church first can sap one's passion. The demands of church callings can make it difficult to persevere in effort toward accomplishing other goals. The time and energy taken for church callings takes away from a person's time and energy. Some callings require complete abandonment of most other goals (mission, RSP, Bishop, MP, GA, etc.).

Linked - Thank you for starting this thread. As a woman, I always felt that I was allowed to have only one church-approved career, and nothing else was acceptable. I was to give 24 hours a day to homemaking and birthing children. I married at 23 ( was was seen as very old for a bride at that time), and was made to understand that if I lived to be 70 or 80, I would spend the entire rest of my life- every waking moment- keeping house.
Part of the stress was the need to always have the house in absolutely perfect condition, sparkling clean, with everything picked up, looking like a home in a magazine, because I never knew when another church member would ring the doorbell unannounced. Church officials tended to just show up without calling, because they "happened to be in the neighborhood" or "just wanted to drop by and see how you are doing", etc. This routine and the restriction to the home, the requirement to be on "house arrest" tended to sap my strength, rather than building "grit."

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:38 am The Church is a parasite. It sucks away your time, energy, passion, and devotion, and it insatiable, never-ending, overwhelming demands. As my kids drifted farther from Mormonism, I used to occasionally worry that they would have problems finding stability and direction in life without it, and I would have to quickly remind myself that the stability and direction provided by slavish devotion to a false, manipulative, unreasonably demanding, deceptive, and easily disprovable belief system is far worse than them taking some time to find the direction and stability that works best for them. I don't have those moments of worry anymore.

The Church steals grit from its members. It absorbs all the grit they have and leaves little for anything else. It was a hard lesson for me to learn, but the Church cares about nothing other than itself, it will take everything it can from you and it will still never be enough.

Well stated, NBI. Now if only I could get DW to not cry when she thinks about me feeling this way... You make a good point about raising kids. I have also worried about that with my kids who are still young. I try to remember that there are plenty of non-mormon and non-religious kids who manage to be great people. But the indoctrination runs deep.

Wonderment wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:53 pm Linked - Thank you for starting this thread. As a woman, I always felt that I was allowed to have only one church-approved career, and nothing else was acceptable. I was to give 24 hours a day to homemaking and birthing children. I married at 23 ( was was seen as very old for a bride at that time), and was made to understand that if I lived to be 70 or 80, I would spend the entire rest of my life- every waking moment- keeping house.
Part of the stress was the need to always have the house in absolutely perfect condition, sparkling clean, with everything picked up, looking like a home in a magazine, because I never knew when another church member would ring the doorbell unannounced. Church officials tended to just show up without calling, because they "happened to be in the neighborhood" or "just wanted to drop by and see how you are doing", etc. This routine and the restriction to the home, the requirement to be on "house arrest" tended to sap my strength, rather than building "grit."

Thank you for sharing your experiences. As a man I'm always a little nervous to mention my thoughts on how the church affects women because my attempts to empathize can only go so far. But it seems like the ceiling slammed on women in the church would have a significant impact on grit. Maybe ceiling isn't the right term, but the rigid role the church assigns to women doesn't allow much room for other pursuits. Based on what you said, it sounds like more than the rigidness of the role, the huge amount of work to fill that role made it difficult to have energy for other pursuits. Things like the expectations of a perfectly clean home (even with little kids who constantly mess it up), and cooking dinner every night, and caring for those kids, and keeping track of everything in the house, and the laundry, and etc.......

How do you think we can support the women in our lives who are still in the church to lighten their load? (I would like to be able to do it without assuming that load myself)

Linked wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:37 pm How do you think we can support the women in our lives who are still in the church to lighten their load? (I would like to be able to do it without assuming that load myself)

I am not sure what you're going for here, but in my personal experience for a woman to leave behind LDS "Be a doormat of a perfect wife and mom who burns it from all ends" and try to be a healthy adult with a career and self interests requires a serious renegotiation and shifting of entire family systems.

It's probably the biggest point of discussion in my own marriage still 6 years after leaving the church. My husband was literally raised to be blind to a great many things by a doormat of a Mormon mom, and he devalues a lot of the work at home (that I do in addition to having a professional life that is crazier that his) without realizing that he is. The work either has to be undone, you've got to pay/bribe/delegate it to someone else to do it, or partners (and kids) have to learn to share the workload better. There is really no other option.

If you don't know about mental load, that's probably a good place to start thinking about these ideas.
https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20 ... dve-asked/

I don't know if it's fair to say that the LDS church removed my "grit" from me, but it certainly limited the ways in which I was able to use it. Luckily, I think it was still present, and that's part of what's enabled me to change a great many things over the last few years. I've always been a goal setter and an achiever, but now I'm even more passionate because I'm doing it to match my priorities and interests instead of the church's.

glass shelf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:53 pm

Linked wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:37 pm How do you think we can support the women in our lives who are still in the church to lighten their load? (I would like to be able to do it without assuming that load myself)

I am not sure what you're going for here, but in my personal experience for a woman to leave behind LDS "Be a doormat of a perfect wife and mom who burns it from all ends" and try to be a healthy adult with a career and self interests requires a serious renegotiation and shifting of entire family systems.

It's probably the biggest point of discussion in my own marriage still 6 years after leaving the church. My husband was literally raised to be blind to a great many things by a doormat of a Mormon mom, and he devalues a lot of the work at home (that I do in addition to having a professional life that is crazier that his) without realizing that he is. The work either has to be undone, you've got to pay/bribe/delegate it to someone else to do it, or partners (and kids) have to learn to share the workload better. There is really no other option.

If you don't know about mental load, that's probably a good place to start thinking about these ideas.
https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20 ... dve-asked/

Thanks for responding. I reread my question and it sounds like I am asking how I can help while doing nothing. “Thoughts and prayers, honey!” haha. The load I don’t want to take on is the mormon expectations for women; basically I am not going to join her mormon vision of what is expected of her. I try to share the load of our household duties, but I can definitely do better.

I guess the heart of my question is how can I help her let go of some of the impossible expectations she has internalized? With our faith differences she is very sensitive to any suggestions I make that are counter to mormon teachings. Maybe if I just do better assuming more of our household mental load she will at least get a minor relief. It’s not a complete solution, but there may not be one.

The mental load stuff is really on point. It seems that the expectations of mormon women are not really unique in the US, and possibly the world.

The interesting thing about all that has been said above is that the church heaps praise on it's men (and sometimes women: think Sherie Dew) who have accomplished great things in their lives. I was listening to the introduction of one of the apostles the other day and they were going on about how he had been an executive for this corporation and a vice president at that corporation and how expert he was in this law firm and the other.

I don't believe a person gets to that level by allowing the church to suck up all their time. I think they prioritize and put the church on the back burner in order to accomplish their goals and then as they achieve a level of success they begin to permit the church to take a little more of their time. And church leadership loves them for it.

In essence they say, "Look at so and so! Look how accomplished he is! Look how wealthy he is and how much he donates to the church. He must be very wise; let's make him a Bishop!"

When the church really needs the particular skills of an individual they look for someone who is goal oriented and accomplished in that area and then they brag about how expert they are. They don't ask how they got there.

They praise those who put their goals ahead of church service when they need their talents. The rest of you peons just keep working at the low, full time, meanial level that you have accepted by your dedication to the cause.

glass shelf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:53 pm If you don't know about mental load, that's probably a good place to start thinking about these ideas.
https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20 ... dve-asked/

OK GS, I read through this. Applying this to my life be like this:

Her: 7 full days before; makes a menu, calls her sister to go shopping, stops at the pharmacy, gets nails done, calls to check in on grandma, grabs lunch, buys groceries, stops for gas, unloads the car, waives at the neighbor, converses with the neighbor for 20 minutes, puts the groceries away, throws dishes in the dishwasher, takes out the garbage, switches the laundry, picks up the kids from school.

A week later, wakes up, makes the bed, neatly folds her pajamas and puts them under her pillow, showers, gets dressed, spends 30 minutes on her hair and makeup, walks to the kitchen, pulls out the steaks from the freezer and puts into fridge, drops the kids off at school, does her, visiting teaching, starts her period, starts the dishwasher calls and checks on grandma, walks the dog, switches laundry, runs errands with her sister, picks up the kids, helps with homework, checks the mailbox, waives at neighbor, talks to neighbor for 30 minutes, unloads the dishwasher, then welcomes me home from work.

Me: 30 minutes before dinner, feeling hungry, “hey, are you hungry yet?” Walks over to fridge, opens fridge, stands there for 10 minutes “looking” for something to eat. Pulls out steaks, lights the grill, we eat! Daddy’s belly is full, dishes done, turns on Netflix! Great evening.

Her: I’m exhausted

Me: why? What did you do today?

Church: you are a daughter of God! Prepared for this moment from even before the earth began! Your destiny and divine mission is glorious!

Linked wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:22 pm The time and energy taken for church callings takes away from a person's time and energy. Some callings require complete abandonment of most other goals (mission, RSP, Bishop, MP, GA, etc.).

Wow, so many great comments on this one. For me, this point above struck me. Not only does TSCC bilk everything off the backs of it's members with only platitudes and hollow promises in return, but it's grooming future kookaid church-broke cronies of the future leadership.

If someone is such a high achiever they can do all the successful life stuff and hold those top local leadership positions, serve a mission, excellent credit score, decent disposable income, they are candidates for the COB jobs and get groomed up for the next level. These guys have big egos, they don't make mistakes, they are alpha males, they could never be deceived, they purport humility while they kiss GA assets and get to hob knob with those guys during regional conferences and training. The church could never possibly not be true for these guys, (thus most seem inoculated or at least know how to play the game ) if for no other reason than they believe it and are part of it and there is just no other alternatives in their mind.

I remember my stake pres telling me he had read much of the material on the few topics I mentioned (or eluded to) in my resignation and that he and I had just come to different conclusions. First of all, he immediately assumed there wasn't possibly any information that I had read that he had already seen or heard of. 2nd off, he was using his position as an SP to basically tell me my conclusions were wrong, because of the first point there.

I find there are many of the high paid professionals, especially medical doctors and surgeons, they seem to have a type of god complex or are quite narcissistic. I've lived among many of these guys for 30 years now and it's not true of all of them, but quite a few in my neighborhood. I don't want to generalize and offend anyone here in the medical profession, overall I have a lot of gratitude and respect for it. They are almost always the "Great Families" in the wards around here, the high achievers, the ones everyone worships and kisses up to and they just love the praise!

So I wonder, are there those I mention above, who have goals directly in line with TSCC, have a place where they really thrive and love to be? They make enough money, the tiths are not a sacrifice. They still have enough free time and resources to get out and enjoy life. They have the tribal recognition at the local level and are fast tracking to the GA slots. So really they didn't sacrifice much or anything; from their view they are exactly where they saw themselves when they were setting all those life goals in church and public school as young teens.

These church-broke cronies probably make up around 10% or less of the membership, considering demographics in high income areas of morcor vs. the rest of the world. Sad to see so much of the membership sacrifice so much, sometimes their entire lives and potential true happiness, for so few to benefit, all under the ruse of a non-profit. Pun intended.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:38 am The Church is a parasite. It sucks away your time, energy, passion, and devotion, and it insatiable, never-ending, overwhelming demands. As my kids drifted farther from Mormonism, I used to occasionally worry that they would have problems finding stability and direction in life without it, and I would have to quickly remind myself that the stability and direction provided by slavish devotion to a false, manipulative, unreasonably demanding, deceptive, and easily disprovable belief system is far worse than them taking some time to find the direction and stability that works best for them. I don't have those moments of worry anymore.

And this is why the church wants to start back up as quickly as it can. They can’t afford to have people recognize that the church is a parasite and that they don’t need it at all. Guilt, shame, and fear don’t have any effect on people who don’t give a fnuck.

Funny Jesus didn't have any of the accomplishments that modern day apostles have !!!!!! Thats really all the information I need.