Finally finished Brodie's NMKMH. Shaken

[MalcolmVillager]

So I have been in the throws of a formal faith crisis for 6 years. The first 3 I worked through stuff mostly alone and here on NOM. DW didnt want to hear anything and challenged my sources. I dont blame her. This stuff is scary.

2 years ago I ordered Brodie and it sat on my shelf. I had already come to my firm conclusion that the church wasn't what it claimed to be. I had heard all the podcasts and read all the articles, essays, and letters. In a lot of ways it felt like "no man" was outdated and trumped by the new stuff. I also was sort of burnt out on all this stuff and moved on to science and other things I enjoy.

However I felt a pull to finally do it. Outside of the CESLetter, it was really the most officially blatantly anti thing I had read. So started it about a year ago. It is a lot of the same stories. It is dense but well written. She does a great job of telling the story, sharing quotes, and giving anecdotes. It has taken me a long time to slog through it in spurts.

Anyway, this week we watched Waco on Netflix. We had seen previous documentaries on it, but this was different. It was theatrical with real production value and decent acting. Especially David and the FBI negotiator. It made things so real. At the end I felt horrible for the Davidians who were slaughter by the missteps of the federal government.

Of course the comparison to JS is obvious. In fact, I downloaded David Koresh's 7 Seals and the publisher for the library had a forward and summary. They directly correlate the biblical writing/dictation style to JS and others (Elena White).

I read the last 4 chapters of NMKMH tonight and felt the same things. A delusional man, who happens to be charismatic and truly believes he speaks for god. Followers who have hope for something better. Who seek certainty for salvation. Who want to feel chosen and elevated. Joseph wasn't innocent, but he was shot in cold blood. Yeah, he had a pistol and possibly shot someone. But he fell from the window, was dragged against a wall, and shot point blank by 4 muskets.

I am sad tonight. Really pretty shaken. JS was complicated.

Also, I am pissed about how this stuff was written in the 1940's. The edition I read had an added supplement that talks about BofA, racism, first vision problems, and corporate cover ups that was written in 1970. All of that was exposed before I was born. Yet I was raised in a completely believing family that taught me all the whitewashed BS. I checked all the boxes. I am an 11 of Bob's Mormon Cred Scale. Freaking everything. 2 BYU degrees, paid 500k in tithing, married in the temple, never went to 1st base before. EQP, HPQP, YMP, SYMP, Bishopric, etc.....

It makes me so mad.

Truly no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing.

The persecution that rises only strengthens the beast. Polygamy strengthened generations of followers.

I am in a cult. I want to scream. I cant get out. My oldest daughter is going to BYU in the fall. How can I ruin that for her. I have 4 more daughters who will try to follow her.

I am so stuck. I hate it. I feel like one of those polygamist women on escaping polygamy who runs back to the creek.

FML.

I know you are all there too. Thanks for letting me scream into this abyss.

[moksha]

Have you ever listened to Chris Smith's presentation in Four Views of Joseph Smith from the Sunstone Symposium website?

[MalcolmVillager]

Have you ever listened to Chris Smith's presentation in Four Views of Joseph Smith from the Sunstone Symposium website?

I have heard of it, but never listened. Maybe this weekend. Thanks Moksha! How appropriate for you to come to my rescue!

[moksha]

Thanks Moksha! How appropriate for you to come to my rescue!

Consider me as a member of a rural firefighting brigade, happy to pass a bucket of water and some diet cola.

[græy]

I am about half way through Waco. I wish my wife would watch it with me, but she refuses to watch anything beyond TV14. Real things are too real for her Mormon-ified world view.

I am sad tonight. Really pretty shaken. JS was complicated.

I can relate to seeing the similarities and even sympathy one might have for the real-world (not supernatural) circumstances events that led to the creation of Mormonism and the downfall of JS.

Also, I am pissed about how this stuff was written in the 1940's. The edition I read had an added supplement that talks about BofA, racism, first vision problems, and corporate cover ups that was written in 1970. All of that was exposed before I was born. Yet I was raised in a completely believing family that taught me all the whitewashed BS. I checked all the boxes. I am an 11 of Bob's Mormon Cred Scale. Freaking everything. 2 BYU degrees, paid 500k in tithing, married in the temple, never went to 1st base before. EQP, HPQP, YMP, SYMP, Bishopric, etc.....

...

I am so stuck. I hate it. I feel like one of those polygamist women on escaping polygamy who runs back to the creek.

I can relate, and it is painful. I am sorry for what the white-washing and deceit has cost you and all of us.

[Palerider]

Sorry Malcolm. This is so hard to listen to.

And probably the hardest part is knowing that it could take a long while for things to change and there's very little I could say that would hurry or soften that process.

As some say, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

But as long as you have truth on your side eventually you will win. Things will get better. You're stronger than you think.

[Mormorrisey]

I had read Brodie for a grad paper I did in the early 1990s, and was concerned enough to approach someone I really admired, who assured me that everything Brodie wrote was anti-Mormon lies, pointed me towards Nibley's hit piece, and for over a decade all was right with the world.

Until I read Rough Stone Rolling.

That's when I realized the main text for Bushman's source material was indeed Brodie. So they weren't anti-Mormon lies after all. That, and City Creek started me down the rabbit hole, and here I am. So I completely understand your frustration. Sorry, man.

Just as some consolation, the church are masters at hiding at troubling information. Masters. They've had a lot of practice, and even with the essays, the new Saints book, new videos and a new "openness," they are still controlling the narrative for 99% of the members. And it will ever be thus, because once you go down the rabbit hole you tend not to be a member anymore, or if you're stuck, become a NOM.

Good luck barrelling through all of this, we get it.

[Red Ryder]

Malcom!

Sorry to point this out but you are no different then the people inside Mount Carmel. The door is right there dude. You just have to walk out.

I know, I know. It’s complicated. I haven’t walked out either because my family is still in too.

The wife and I have watched Waco together and she can easily point out they were religious nuts but she can’t see that in the church founder she believes is a prophet.

Good luck and come visit again.

[Mackman]

Malcolm. I'm right there with ya bro !!!! I know how you feel but I have learned the gift of lying and indifference both of which I am getting much better at . Sometimes to survive in the jungle you must improvise, adapt and overcome !!!!! Hang on there bro !

[RubinHighlander]

Malcom bro! So hard, so painful so Fd up!

We also watched Waco last week. It was so relatable! Lots of the same emotions you had. We are also watching The Handmaid's Tale for the third time. So many parts of that are way too similar to mormonism. It's a tribalistic cultist formula that works way too well with humans.

While you slog this difficult road of being stuck in it, my advice is to try to compartmentalize it. You know the truth now, let that set your mind free. It's a tribal circus you were born into and have to put up with now because of your family. But you should try to find things now that you can do and experience that give you some freedom from that. It does mean you have to live a double life, but it's better than nothing. I know some here manage to still live the lifestyle and it's a matter of principle that they will not doing things in secret away from TBM family. I respect that. But for me I had a beer, smoked some weed, enjoyed life when I was not at home or at church. I read what I wanted and had friends I could talk to openly. But it was best DW didn't know and really she didn't want to know. It was what I did to keep from going insane. Sloughing off all the guilt of the crap the church puts on you is the first big step. Trimming back your tithing payments to a more tolerable level if you can, tell the local leaders what they want to hear but minimize your involvement as much as you can, take back some of your life! Easier said than done.

[wtfluff]

Ah.. Brodie.

When I was in the throes of my entire world-view crashing, I decided I would attempt to study "both sides" so I started reading Rough Stone Rolling. RSR drove me nuts. As I remember, RSR was very in-depth, but very dry & boring. Bushman brings up all the issues, in depth, gives some a lame apologetic explanation here and there... And quickly moves on to the next subject. I was constantly screaming at him in my head to apply just a tiny bit of logic to what he was saying, and state a logical conclusion, but alas, it didn't happen in that book.

Literally while I was slogging through RSR, I picked up No Man Knows My History, and blew through it in no time (paused reading of RSR.) NMKMH was a much easier read for me. Same basic content, but much easier on my brain. I had no desire to scream at Brodie.

Of course, much of it is probably my own confirmation bias, but Brodie's conclusions made a lot more sense to me.


As far as being stuck: I'm personally not in a stuck state, but too many of my family members are, and many times I do want to scream at them to wake up, but the screaming would fall on deaf ears, and play into the stereotypes they have in their brains. Kids going to BYU would definitely drive my completely nuts.

Solidarity eh? Take every opportunity that comes to "step away" from the cult in little ways to keep your sanity. I absolutely detest running, but it is a marathon we're dealing with. (I'll just do the marathon on a skateboard, and finish earlier... If only earlier could happen with my relatives waking up...)

[MalcolmVillager]

You all are seriously amazing. The only place that can really relate. Better than FB groups, than friends IRL. And better than Reddit. You got me through some dark times. I am pretty inactive here most of the time. The apathy I am trying to channel takes my desire to post away.

Today was a bit better. Went for a long run/walk with DW and we really connected in this topic. She is mostly where I am now, but still cant rip off the bandaid. That is probably good too because I dont know if I am completely ready for all the consequences either.

RR, when you posted that I am just like one of the Davidians. I broke down crying. That dude who sacrificed his wife so that David could get her pregnant, who asked him to let them leave, and who could just do it flashed to my mind. He ends up being the one who shoots DK after the fire, and then himself.

Am i willing to die in the fire? For this lie? Am I willing to spend a few happy years with my family to keep the peace, just to die in a fire?

Here's to another day of playing the part. I've got this.

Thanks to all of you. You have been in this trench or are in this trench now. Solidarity!

[Thoughtful]

I hate that this is so messy and so lonely. And that's why people stay. It's why my parents won't see what they know is there. It's why we don't want to "catch the monkey" at times. I'm glad my kids are out. I'm sad for the wasted years. Believing the best about people who were just taking advantage. A lot to unpack. I hope things settle for you soon.

[blazerb]

Going to BYU can be a shelf-breaker. Your daughter is probably not the religious nut I was, but still. Suddenly I was around Mormons who taught evolution, real geology, psychology, and archaeology. I saw how the Honor Code was used to hurt people. The best teachers introduced nuance to church doctrines. They had to do it carefully, so no religious nuts like me would not complain to the authorities, but they still made their points.

It is very possible you'll be helping your daughter through a faith transition someday as she finds out the church does not act like it tells everyone else to act.

[MalcolmVillager]

Going to BYU can be a shelf-breaker. Your daughter is probably not the religious nut I was, but still. Suddenly I was around Mormons who taught evolution, real geology, psychology, and archaeology. I saw how the Honor Code was used to hurt people. The best teachers introduced nuance to church doctrines. They had to do it carefully, so no religious nuts like me would not complain to the authorities, but they still made their points.

It is very possible you'll be helping your daughter through a faith transition someday as she finds out the church does not act like it tells everyone else to act.

True. I was at Rick's college (the highest degree in the CK) in the 90's and the extreme version of Mormonism was too much for me, who had come from a pretty militaristic LDD home.

We are trying to teach her nuance. She knows that our goal is to teach her how to think and not what to think. She is torn. We can see some cognitive dissonance and also some backfire effect as we have tried to push things further for her as she makes this critical decision. She got better scholarships at other schools, but still wants to go to BYU with friends.

I suppose I am also projecting some anger that I feel toward my parents who knew about the messiness of the church and correlated our learning to be in line with the church narrative. I never want her to feel the anger that I have, but it would be cruel to rip off the bandaid now, or it could cause her to double down.

[MalcolmVillager]

I hate that this is so messy and so lonely. And that's why people stay. It's why my parents won't see what they know is there. It's why we don't want to "catch the monkey" at times. I'm glad my kids are out. I'm sad for the wasted years. Believing the best about people who were just taking advantage. A lot to unpack. I hope things settle for you soon.

Yeah, lots to unpack. I see how humans want to believe and simultaneously they are programmed to believe (thus 99% of humans follow the religion, politics, values, sports teams, food preferences, etc... of their culture and parents).

I am trying to live in the present to avoid regretting wasted time, talents, money, and everything I was blessed to share with the church in the past. However, again I am probably projecting future regrets of my continued (partial) compliance and the regrets of my kids who have not yet given years, and thousands, and emotional, and career/family decisions to a coerced cultural expectation.

I hope things settle soon as well, however I am settled in for the marathon it will likely be.

[MalcolmVillager]

Ah.. Brodie.

Of course, much of it is probably my own confirmation bias, but Brodie's conclusions made a lot more sense to me.

Solidarity eh? Take every opportunity that comes to "step away" from the cult in little ways to keep your sanity. I absolutely detest running, but it is a marathon we're dealing with. (I'll just do the marathon on a skateboard, and finish earlier... If only earlier could happen with my relatives waking up...)

Yeah, me too. RSR played a roll for me. My wife bought it for me the Christmas it came out. I was in a bishopric. It was definitely something that ended on my shelf for later digestion.

Yeah, I am doing the marathon on my terms. I pay tithing out of every paycheck, but it is about a pizza in value. I don't wear G's unless we are around family (since I am in the closet and DW isn't ready for tough conversations with them). Drink illegal caffeine of all sorts. Haven't been to the temple going on 5 years, despite carrying a card. Break the sabbath and skip church as often as possible.

Most observant people know something is up, but nobody addresses it. Just a few random testimonies from neighbors on walks

[MalcolmVillager]

Malcom bro! So hard, so painful so Fd up!

We also watched Waco last week. It was so relatable! Lots of the same emotions you had. We are also watching The Handmaid's Tale for the third time. So many parts of that are way too similar to mormonism. It's a tribalistic cultist formula that works way too well with humans.

We watched the first 2 seasons and they were painful on their own merit, but especially as a Mormon.

Is it worth watching the rest? I don't recall if there are 3 or 4 seasons.

[MalcolmVillager]

Malcolm. I'm right there with ya bro !!!! I know how you feel but I have learned the gift of lying and indifference both of which I am getting much better at . Sometimes to survive in the jungle you must improvise, adapt and overcome !!!!! Hang on there bro !

Thanks MM. Yeah, I have done just that. I just hate it. I suppose we all lie every day about things to keep the peace and keep your standing. Nobody wants to be around a completely honest person who cares about truth over feelings or relationships.

[MalcolmVillager]

Malcom!


Good luck and come visit again.

Si Dios Quiere. Ojala. Spaghetti Monster willing!