NOM

Posted: **Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:33 pm**

This might only be interesting to me, but I decided to post it. A while ago, I read through the FairMormon page about Brigham Young's knowledge of the First Vision:https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Jose ... gham_Young. Apparently, some have held that he did not know about it. I will state at the outset that I find this unbelievable. There were several accounts of the FV published by the time BY died. However, he really did not talk about it. The FairMormon page attempts to establish that BY did preach about it. They list some details that were mentioned by him in his sermons: JS called at 14, JS called as a youth, Revival or Reformation, All churches wrong, Two Personages, Moroni and the Book of Mormon, Priesthood Restored. I don't know what the last two have to do with the FV at all. They then give a number of quotes. Some are by BY. Some are about the FV. The intersection of those two sets appears to be empty.

That made me wonder about those details from BY's sermons. The only two that really could be unambiguously associated with the FV are the fourth and fifth: All churches wrong and two personages. I looked up the sermons. Here's what I found. Quotes are from the Journal of Discourses. Volume, page number, and date are given.

Regarding all churches being wrong (JD 2:171, Feb 18, 1855):

But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith, Jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong; that they were following the precepts of men instead of the Lord Jesus; that He had a work for him to perform, inasmuch as he should prove faithful before Him.

and (JD 12:67-68, June 23, 1867)

Said he, “Lord, teach me, that I may know for myself, who among these are right.” And what was the answer? “They are all out of the way; they have gone astray, and there is none that doeth good, no not one.” When he found out that none were right, he began to inquire of the Lord what was right, and he learned for himself.

Neither of these seems to indicate a visit from the Godhead. I saw that FairMormon claims the first quote is using "angel" to refer to Jesus Christ, but it still does not tell of the visit from God the Father that the traditional story includes. The second sounds more like the 1832 account where JS concludes that all the churches are wrong even before praying.

The two personages quote was so obscure that I am not sure I picked out the part that FairMormon wants me to read. As near as I can tell, this is what they are claiming as evidence that BY knew about God the Father and Jesus Christ visiting Joseph Smith. (JD 18:231, Sept 17, 1876):

Why was Joseph Smith persecuted? Why was he hunted from neighborhood to neighborhood, from city to city, and from State to State, and at last suffered death? Because he received revelations from the Father, from the Son, and was ministered to by holy angels, and published to the world the direct will of the Lord concerning his children on the earth.

So, if you have more historical knowledge, I'd like to know what has been written about Brigham's understanding of the First Vision. It seems to me that he did not speak of it even if he was aware of it. Is this because he considered it a personal experience of JS and not something to be shared with the world? Is it because he really did not care about it? What else could be the reason?

This really reinforced for me the desperate nature of LDS apologists. They grasp onto anything that might help their cause. However, the weakness of the argument indicates to me that there must be something they are not saying.

Posted: **Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:12 pm**

I remember reading about this a few years ago and was under a similar impression. That Brigham for some reason or other wasn't up to speed on the FV.

I don't know why, but from the things that you have quoted, which were either very similar or the same that I read back then, I came to the conclusion that Brigham either rejected the FV story (unlikely) or it just blew past him when it was first spoken of.

I think it's important to remember that very early on the FV story was not used as a part of the conversion process. Early on it was the angel Moroni story and the BoM that were the big selling points. That's how Brigham was converted. He may have felt emotionally tied to that story and kind of disregarded the later FV if he even followed it at all.

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:19 pm**

So if he knew about it, I wonder if Brigham believed it was Adam and Jesus that appeared to JS or Elohim and Jesus?

From what I have read, the first vision didn't really play into the main narrative of the church until much later. I read somewhere that the reason it is called the "first vision" was to differentiate it from D&C 76 which was at the time commonly called "the vision".

Like most of mormon history, it was retconned and assigned significance long after it happened and there were few contemporaries left that could dispute the new and revised story.

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:29 pm**

Was Brigham part of Joseph's inner circle and if so, in what year did this occur?

Posted: **Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:39 pm**

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:19 pm So if he knew about it, I wonder if Brigham believed it was Adam and Jesus that appeared to JS or Elohim and Jesus?

That may have really been a dilemma for Brigham and you can see how he might play it down in order to promote his own doctrine. He had Elohim, Jehovah, Michael/Adam, and Jesus all as separate gods. I believe Brigham would have to consider the two personages in the grove to be Michael/Adam and Jesus. I'm still kind of struggling with where Jehovah fits into Adam-God doctrine. He was not the pre-existent Jesus in Brigham's day. That doctrine, as far as I can tell, is the invention of James Talmage. Joseph F. Smith said, "Elohim, Jehovah and Michael are Father, Son, and Grandson. They made this Earth and Michael became Adam."

The First Vision was first published in the Times and Seasons in 1842 but it wasn't canonized until 1880. It was kind of messy. For most of that time the angel in the published JS story was still named Nephi. Maybe no one knew what to do with it because they were all taken by surprise.

I wonder if Brigham never heard Joseph preach the First Vision and he was as caught off guard by its publication as anyone else. Maybe Brigham didn't really buy into all of Joseph's imaginings, could see he was going off the rails toward disaster and was already making machinations to take control and build his own kingdom. He would keep, discard, and modify Joseph's teachings as suited him. He certainly liked to credit Joseph with any off-the-wall thing he wanted to teach and be taken seriously but that were a surprise to everyone else (e.g. Adam-God and some aspects of polygamy).

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:39 am**

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:39 pm
Culper Jr. wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:19 pm So if he knew about it, I wonder if Brigham believed it was Adam and Jesus that appeared to JS or Elohim and Jesus?
That may have really been a dilemma for Brigham and you can see how he might play it down in order to promote his own doctrine. He had Elohim, Jehovah, Michael/Adam, and Jesus all as separate gods. I believe Brigham would have to consider the two personages in the grove to be Michael/Adam and Jesus. I'm still kind of struggling with where Jehovah fits into Adam-God doctrine. He was not the pre-existent Jesus in Brigham's day. That doctrine, as far as I can tell, is the invention of James Talmage. Joseph F. Smith said, "Elohim, Jehovah and Michael are Father, Son, and Grandson. They made this Earth and Michael became Adam."

The First Vision was first published in the Times and Seasons in 1842 but it wasn't canonized until 1880. It was kind of messy. For most of that time the angel in the published JS story was still named Nephi. Maybe no one knew what to do with it because they were all taken by surprise.

I wonder if Brigham never heard Joseph preach the First Vision and he was as caught off guard by its publication as anyone else. Maybe Brigham didn't really buy into all of Joseph's imaginings, could see he was going off the rails toward disaster and was already making machinations to take control and build his own kingdom. He would keep, discard, and modify Joseph's teachings as suited him. He certainly liked to credit Joseph with any off-the-wall thing he wanted to teach and be taken seriously (e.g. Adam-God and some aspects of polygamy).

NOM

What did Brigham know about the 1st Vision?

What did Brigham know about the 1st Vision?

Re: What did Brigham know about the 1st Vision?

Re: What did Brigham know about the 1st Vision?

Re: What did Brigham know about the 1st Vision?

Re: What did Brigham know about the 1st Vision?

Re: What did Brigham know about the 1st Vision?