NOM

Since my Faith redirection I sometimes examine Mormonism and Christianity with a "devil's advocate" viewpoint. Hence the title, and my proverb below. I think the way we viewed our parents has a lot to do with the way we view God. My Mom was the understanding parent. She had unconditional love for all of us. She was easy to talk to, even about difficult topics. I still have a relationship with her through my memories and her wonderful diaries. In my childhood Mom was Love. Dad was the disciplinarian. Life with Dad was about doing things right, whether on the farm on around the house. I often felt he was disappointed in me, although in retrospect I feel his 'tough love' did have benefits, it balanced with Mom. And occasionally Mom was strict and Dad did have his kinder, gentler moments. Now when I think of God, I think of God I'm drawn to a Mother figure, even to the extent that I often ponder a 'Heavenly Mother.' Does this make any sense to anyone?

These are interesting observations. I have read that one of the benefits of having two parents is that there is often a parallel of the sort you mention with yours, where one is tender and unconditionally loving while the other is about standards and expectations to be met. Both fill an important role in a child becoming a secure, capable individual.

I know coming from a pretty dysfunctional (non-LDS) home, I was very drawn to the loving, unconditional idea of God and a savior who had sacrificed everything for me. It was when I started feeling incapable of living up to expectations and that I'd never be worthy of the celestial kingdom that I became open to doubts and questions about the church.

I don't know whether I believe in any god anymore, but the idea of god that still holds power in my mind is the one who loves without measure or limits. That was also the god I tried to teach to my children.

Depends on whether you follow Jesus or if you follow the prophet. If you follow the prophet, he is all about obedience and says that God’s love is conditioned on our obedience. If you follow the Biblical Jesus, he says that the greatest commandment is to love God and second is to love our neighbor and ourselves. He says that nothing can ever make God stop loving us. To Jesus, love is given freely while to Rusty love is earned. Jesus and Rusty worship very different Gods.

alas wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:18 am If you follow the Biblical Jesus, he says that the greatest commandment is to love God and second is to love our neighbor and ourselves.

In fact he says love your neighbor as yourself. To me that says you should be as willing to believe in and stand up for yourself as you would for anyone else, and vice versa. I also think it implies that you can't really love God if you don't have the ability to love self and neighbor. If you find yourself in a religious climate, for instance, where you feel obligated to relegate yourself at a lower tier can you fully realize the two greatest commandments? All I know is that I was raised to see very little value in myself and a great deal of value in certain others. If you take into account that the LDS culture has some difficulty differentiating between God/Church/Leaders (at least as those terms are conflated in conference talks, lesson manuals, and Ensign articles) it gets that much more difficult.

Is god love? Is god obedience?

Or... Along the lines of your post Deacon: Is god a mother figure, or a father figure?

As Alas mentioned, a lot of that might depend on which religious sect you adhere to at the moment. In the case of religion, there are millions of different gods, and in fact thousands of different Jesus's (if not hundreds of thousands.)

Personally, I think if you want to figure out what / who god is, all you need to do is look in the mirror.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:46 am

alas wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:18 am If you follow the Biblical Jesus, he says that the greatest commandment is to love God and second is to love our neighbor and ourselves.

In fact he says love your neighbor as yourself.

Thought Alas just had an auto-correct typo there...

My father was raised in Salt Lake by parents who had fallen away from the church. My mother was a convert when she was 12 years old and was never a big church believer but definitely believed in God. Home life was somewhat dysfunctional. My mom really tried her best. My dad seemed like most of the time he just put up with us and wished he could get more work out of us. Not one to be an educator of children. He used to hammer us pretty good from time to time. I just wanted to stay away from him for the first 15-16 years of my life. It left me pretty lost and directionless.

In the LDS church were some of my first encounters with "gentle" men who seemed like friendly people in a healthy way. Reading the New Testament for the first time in my life gave me a sense of direction and purpose and introduced me to the character of the Savior.

Someone who empathized with the difficulties of the human condition; full of mercy and slow to anger. And yet loved to obey because of a heartfelt desire for righteousness and to please a Father who was just like him. For Jesus it wasn't that justice wasn't important. He sustained the law because to do otherwise would be to condone the transgression of the law. But he knew our condition and that Mercy was merited for all who truly wished they could have lived the law. Mercy and Grace for all of those who were trapped in life by our choices made in ignorance and arrogance, but live in regret.

Have you ever wanted a do-over? To live life again knowing what you know now?

For me, God would say, "Palerider, you don't need a do-over. I never intended for you to live a perfect life. You've already learned everything that life was meant to teach you. Even when you failed. Even with all of the pain, no matter where it came from.

Rather than a do-over, wouldn't you rather just come home with me and live in a place that is everything and much more than what you always wanted Earth life to be? I promise, you'll have a difficult time even remembering the pains of Earth life things are so good here.

The other stuff I learned from the LDS church:

1. Save yourself by living the law with perfection.

2. Ordinances bring power so that you can perfect yourself and declare to God how righteous you are.

3. Wrong or right, obey these men.

4. Work......Work to make others work. Work harder.

5. Leaders keep telling me, "God doesn't need your money"...... but these men seem to want it badly.

6. Don't listen to what the Biblical scriptures say. Our new books will tell you what to think.

7. Don't listen to what our new books say. We'll tell you what to think.

8. Only listen to us if we're alive. We'll tell you what to think. If we're dead you can disregard us.

9. Be happy........while you work.

10. Be healthy.....while you work.

11. If you're confused, work harder.

12....…...........



.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:57 am Is God love? Is God obedience?

Or... Along the lines of your post Deacon: Is God a mother figure, or a father figure?

I think it would be along the lines of a worthy God vs a slavemaster. A slavemaster would stress obedience.

However, what would a snake oil salesman stress? He might reckon that love can be fickle, whereas obedience can keep them coming back for more of the magic elixir on a steady basis.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:46 am

alas wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:18 am If you follow the Biblical Jesus, he says that the greatest commandment is to love God and second is to love our neighbor and ourselves.

In fact he says love your neighbor as yourself. To me that says you should be as willing to believe in and stand up for yourself as you would for anyone else, and vice versa. I also think it implies that you can't really love God if you don't have the ability to love self and neighbor. If you find yourself in a religious climate, for instance, where you feel obligated to relegate yourself at a lower tier can you fully realize the two greatest commandments? All I know is that I was raised to see very little value in myself and a great deal of value in certain others. If you take into account that the LDS culture has some difficulty differentiating between God/Church/Leaders (at least as those terms are conflated in conference talks, lesson manuals, and Ensign articles) it gets that much more difficult.

Psychology says that you cannot love others when you don’t love yourself. So, yes. Teaching people “humility” by constantly shaming as many religions do, them makes people who fear God and hate themselves and are incapable of loving others. You just can’t love a God who thinks you are a worthless POS. Nelson’s attitude toward God tells me a lot about how he was raised, and he needs therapy to learn to love himself instead of being a narcissist.

alas wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:16 am Nelson’s attitude toward God tells me a lot about how he was raised, and he needs therapy to learn to love himself instead of being a narcissist.

But instead he gets millions of adoring worshipers. Isn't that like throwing a match on gasoline? Thank goodness these guys only get the full power trip for the last few years of their lives. I used to think it would be great to get a 30-year old prophet who could really get some stuff done and have plenty of time to see it through, but imagine if you had a Packer or Oaks that position of 60 years.

moksha wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:25 am I think it would be along the lines of a worthy God vs a slavemaster. A slavemaster would stress obedience.

In Mormon cosmology, Satan stressed a plan of obedience. In Jesus' ministry, Jesus stressed the importance of love.

moksha wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:47 pm

moksha wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:25 am I think it would be along the lines of a worthy God vs a slavemaster. A slavemaster would stress obedience.

In Mormon cosmology, Satan stressed a plan of obedience. In Jesus' ministry, Jesus stressed the importance of love.

I'm pretty sure Mormon Satan's plan was for no free will (agency) or choice. More like either coerced submission or another possibility would be people running purely on instinct like the rest of the animals. Eat, drink, reproduce, etc., all on a bio-clock. Therefore "sin" could not exist where there is no freedom of choice.

The word "obedience" seems to me to have a number of contexts it can be plugged into. Having the choice to obey for our own benefit and out of love, being just one. But maybe I'm being pedantic.

To me, the Savior taught the need for both love and obedience with equal balance. "Neither do I condemn thee. Go thy way and sin no more...."

moksha wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:47 pm In Mormon cosmology, Satan stressed a plan of obedience.

Satan's plan would probably have required weird, twisted stuff like having 19-yea-olds swear secret oaths that they would allow their throats to be slit if they disobeyed.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:52 am

moksha wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:47 pm In Mormon cosmology, Satan stressed a plan of obedience.

Satan's plan would probably have required weird, twisted stuff like having 19-yea-olds swear secret oaths that they would allow their throats to be slit if they disobeyed.

Yeah, when I first went through the temple in 1975, the whole endowment felt very much like coercion. Can you imagine the Jesus of the New Testament saying that "penalty stuff" to his apostles and disciples? The temple is less diabolical now thanks to God, common sense, Gordon B. Hinckley, or whoever did the surveys that led to the change.
But still the temple seems so legalistic. The oaths are very much like the contracts (with witnesses ) that our society uses in dealing with each other. But in a family relationship such as the ideal father, mother, child relationship I imagine having with God the Father and the Mother I shouldn't feel a need to raise our hand to the square or sign the on the dotted line.
When 15 year-old Me wrecked a farm truck in 1970 , and I offered to somehow buy a new one, my Dad didn't take me up on it. We both knew it was unrealistic to expect Me to make that kind of restitution.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:52 am When 15 year-old Me wrecked a farm truck in 1970 , and I offered to somehow buy a new one, my Dad didn't take me up on it. We both knew it was unrealistic to expect Me to make that kind of restitution.

So, you're saying a kind and loving Heavenly Father should be at least as understanding and forgiving as a mere mortal? But then he would "cease to be God." You wouldn't want to be the one responsible for depriving an entire universe of its god would you?

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:51 pm

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:52 am When 15 year-old Me wrecked a farm truck in 1970 , and I offered to somehow buy a new one, my Dad didn't take me up on it. We both knew it was unrealistic to expect Me to make that kind of restitution.

So, you're saying a kind and loving Heavenly Father should be at least as understanding and forgiving as a mere mortal? But then he would "cease to be God." You wouldn't want to be the one responsible for depriving an entire universe of its god would you?

But that's why he sent his son to die for us, so he could be forgiving! Don't you see???

I think the atonement only makes sense in the context of the Law of Moses. It cleverly uses the spirit of the Law to free people from it. If you aren't living under the Law, you have to impose something like it for the atonement to free you from, which makes God into anything from a jerk to an abuser to a monster, depending on what your substitute Law is.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:10 am Since my Faith redirection I sometimes examine Mormonism and Christianity with a "devil's advocate" viewpoint. Hence the title, and my proverb below. I think the way we viewed our parents has a lot to do with the way we view God. My Mom was the understanding parent. She had unconditional love for all of us. She was easy to talk to, even about difficult topics. I still have a relationship with her through my memories and her wonderful diaries. In my childhood Mom was Love. Dad was the disciplinarian. Life with Dad was about doing things right, whether on the farm on around the house. I often felt he was disappointed in me, although in retrospect I feel his 'tough love' did have benefits, it balanced with Mom. And occasionally Mom was strict and Dad did have his kinder, gentler moments. Now when I think of God, I think of God I'm drawn to a Mother figure, even to the extent that I often ponder a 'Heavenly Mother.' Does this make any sense to anyone?

The force that is god is both. (actually many more) But one force draws you, like gravity, and is pretty unforgiving, much like gravity, or inertia. Imagine a train on tracks. Any effort to pull a different way will result in chaos. But, when you are on the track, the feeling of love, security, and safety is a natural result.

Obedience to God's Law (the idea) creates the love (the experience.) Following the wrong law will result in a bad experience.