Confused About How DW Interpreted "Spiritual" SM Story

[Deepthinker]

DW stayed home from church yesterday, our youngest was sick. So, I took the rest of the kids to church.

During sacrament, the Bishop's wife gave a talk. Her closing thoughts were a story which she teared up a bit while telling. The short version of this "super-spiritual" story: She was feeling depressed a few months after her husband had been called Bishop, that maybe God didn't love her, and she really wanted some chocolate. After looking through her house for chocolate someone knocks on the door and hands her some chocolate treats. She testified that this was absolute proof that God loves her.

I talked with DW about it later and she said "oh, yeah, she's told that story a few times in RS." While acknowledging that I'm sure this was an emotional experience for the Bishop's wife, I went on to explain what I thought about the story, that it is not a life-changing spiritual experience for me. That her first-world problem of not having any chocolate in the house (they're quite wealthy) pales in comparison to the real problems many people face in the world, such as not even having any food. I said that this is as bad as the lost key stories, maybe worse. DW agreed and even said more about how she doesn't like those stories!

Then she said something I don't understand. She said those stories make her feel like God doesn't love her, because she doesn't have those experiences. What!? I asked why she would feel that way when she just agreed that those stories are not real spiritual experiences. She couldn't answer. I reminded her about the impression she had about our daughter which I believe saved our daughter's life, and told her that is a spiritual experience actually worth sharing. She wouldn't agree with that. I just don't get it.

[Linked]

The church is good at having their cake and eating it too, and it wears off on the members. It sounds like your wife has an emotional response to these stories and her perception that she doesn't have them. But in her head she knows that the stories do not really have the meaning that the story teller assigns. It's probably a point of cog-dis for your wife, and if she spends enough time working through it she will come out the other end without feeling like God doesn't love her. Good luck!

[Corsair]

I feel for you. My wife has a firm testimony of the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith and simply will not have a substantive conversation with me about it. In a moment of vulnerability she quietly admitted that she does not want these kinds of conversations with me about spiritual experiences knowing that I might be able to dismantle them.

It would be lovely to have an in-depth discussion about what does or does not constitute a "spiritual experience". I think that a major part of the problem is how believers are not comfortable defining the limits of what is or is not a spiritual experience. I see three big problems. First, your "Bishop's wife and the chocolate" story might not be quite as compelling to others. But you don't want to be rude or condescending about someone's personal experience.

Second, believers of one faith are normally not eager to compare their spiritual experiences with the experiences from another faith tradition. I have seen some Evangelical scholars argue about the epistemology of a spiritual experience. Some have concluded that evidence based on scripture and history is needed to bridge the gap between competing faith traditions. Apologetics is distinctly necessary.

The third, and most difficult problem with spiritual stories comes from apostates. Forum members on RfM, NOM, reddit/r/exmormon, or other unbeliever websites can and have claimed that they were led out of LDS belief by a witness of the spirit. I can only imagine the reaction of the average LDS testimony meeting if someone walked to the front and bore their UN-testimony based on "feeling the witness of the Holy Ghost". This experience would be delicious to the taste and very desirable, but I'm not going to do this any time soon.

[MoPag]

During sacrament, the Bishop's wife gave a talk. Her closing thoughts were a story which she teared up a bit while telling. The short version of this "super-spiritual" story: She was feeling depressed a few months after her husband had been called Bishop, that maybe God didn't love her, and she really wanted some chocolate. After looking through her house for chocolate someone knocks on the door and hands her some chocolate treats. She testified that this was absolute proof that God loves her.

This is f-ed up even if I put my TBM hat back on. It's like:

"Well, when God sent his only begotten Son to be tortured and die for my sins I was kind of like ...meh... But then He sent me chocolate and I was like oh He really does love me!!!!!"

[Corsair]

This is f-ed up even if I put my TBM hat back on. It's like:

"Well, when God sent his only begotten Son to be tortured and die for my sins I was kind of like ...meh... But then He sent me chocolate and I was like oh He really does love me!!!!!"

We need a verse for the hymn, "I Stand All Amazed".

I stand all amazed at the sweets Jesus offers me,
Confused at the chocolate so fully he proffered me.
I tremble to know that for me he was crucified,
But chocolate is awesome, He sent it, I've testified.

[Deepthinker]

The church is good at having their cake and eating it too, and it wears off on the members. It sounds like your wife has an emotional response to these stories and her perception that she doesn't have them. But in her head she knows that the stories do not really have the meaning that the story teller assigns. It's probably a point of cog-dis for your wife, and if she spends enough time working through it she will come out the other end without feeling like God doesn't love her. Good luck!

I think there is some cognitive dissonance. You’ve helped me look at her response differently. I do think what you’re saying is at least part of what is going on with her. I think she’s fighting the following things within herself:

• Her common sense tells her this story is lacking spiritual significance, and that if it were her own story she would never see it as a spiritual experience.
  
  She has told me often that she doesn’t believe God loves her.
  
  She has also said that she never knows when something is an answer to her prayer or when it is just her own feelings. So, even if something happened that could be considered spiritual, she usually discounts it, perhaps mostly because she doesn’t believe God loves her.
  
  Her emotional needs are focused on wanting to fit into the “group”, and to do that she needs to have any kind of spiritual experience to share.

The first three prevent herself from feeling like she can belong.

[Deepthinker]

During sacrament, the Bishop's wife gave a talk. Her closing thoughts were a story which she teared up a bit while telling. The short version of this "super-spiritual" story: She was feeling depressed a few months after her husband had been called Bishop, that maybe God didn't love her, and she really wanted some chocolate. After looking through her house for chocolate someone knocks on the door and hands her some chocolate treats. She testified that this was absolute proof that God loves her.

This is f-ed up even if I put my TBM hat back on. It's like:

"Well, when God sent his only begotten Son to be tortured and die for my sins I was kind of like ...meh... But then He sent me chocolate and I was like oh He really does love me!!!!!"

Yes, and that is what makes Joseph Smith a prophet too!

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

This is f-ed up even if I put my TBM hat back on. It's like:

"Well, when God sent his only begotten Son to be tortured and die for my sins I was kind of like ...meh... But then He sent me chocolate and I was like oh He really does love me!!!!!"

We need a verse for the hymn, "I Stand All Amazed".

I stand all amazed at the sweets Jesus offers me,
Confused at the chocolate so fully he proffered me.
I tremble to know that for me he was crucified,
But chocolate is awesome, He sent it, I've testified.

Brilliant!!

[MrsGeorgeMiller]

Then she said something I don't understand. She said those stories make her feel like God doesn't love her, because she doesn't have those experiences. What!? I asked why she would feel that way when she just agreed that those stories are not real spiritual experiences. She couldn't answer. I reminded her about the impression she had about our daughter which I believe saved our daughter's life, and told her that is a spiritual experience actually worth sharing. She wouldn't agree with that. I just don't get it.

I'm a total outsider, having not been raised in the church, but from my years in Relief Society, it has been my observation that there is a chronic problem of insecurity and one-upmanship among some of the sisters. Gender construction within any society is problematic, and for LDS women in particular, the expectation of what women should be and the reality of what women are tends to create an uncomfortable dissonance. Women are expected to be more intuitive and in touch with HF, be amazing homemakers, be unwavering in their support of their husbands and the priesthood, be angelic mothers who never lose their cool, etc. etc. etc. What is worse, there are always women in each ward who actually project this aura of the ideal. The Molly Mormons can be intimidating. They can knit a doily with one hand, churn butter with the other, rock the baby's cradle with one foot, all while handing a conference call with a new client as she plans the next young women's conference in the back of her mind.

These kind of "perfect" God-and-Me stories, like the much-needed magic chocolate, can be both uplifting as well as mirror for a woman's insecurity. Women feel inadequate around women who can knit, churn butter, babysit, land a business contract, and get God-chocolate without batting an eye. We all know how totally stupid a skill like churning butter is today, but at the same time, that woman in RS can freakin' churn butter, and that is so cool and amazing, and she would so be a better pioneer than I would be because if I was back in the Joseph Smith days, I wouldn't have been able to make butter, which means I'm a total failure in my ancestor's eyes, and I probably wouldn't have gotten my husband because I'm an incompetent churner which makes sense since I can't knit doilies, grind my own flour, channel Martha Stuart when making candles in mason jars or say a prayer well enough to summon God-chocolate to my door when I really needed it!

*ahem* Sorry, got carried away there...

Anyway, the point is, as annoying as these stories are to hear, they also reiterate a narrative of a woman's ideal spirituality which drastically contrasts with most of our realities. Who wouldn't want a strong enough relationship with HF that could summon free chocolate when needed? The truth is, for the woman telling the story with the chocolate, it really was incredibly spiritual and meaningful. Part of the mystery is that we never know what is going to have meaning and significance for another person. From experience, I can say that the more we look for little signs and miracles, the more they tend to occur. Sure, it could be my rational brain looking for patterns (since we are kind of biologically wired for that), but if my faith is present, then these coincidences are seen as more divinely intertwined than random. Your wife may think God-chocolate and like stories are lame (and often they are), but you can't deny that these stories hold meaning for the speakers, and that somehow it is holding up a mirror for your wife. Maybe it's revealing a hidden longing to be more connected to HF. Maybe it is preying on a female or spiritual insecurity. Maybe she's tired of blind faith and just wants a sign of reassurance. Maybe she secretly really wants chocolate. Who knows. You might not be able to rationally understand her reaction, but acknowledging her reaction and holding space for her can go a long way for both of you in understanding the situation. If this incident is drumming up old tapes about not being good enough, intuitive enough, connected enough, Mormon enough, etc., it means that she has some work to do. By holding space and not judging her, she will have a safe place where she can explore these thoughts and feelings.

[Not Buying It]

You just be joking. Some wealthy member lady felt a little down and wanted chocolate, and BING God sent someone right over. Meanwhile little African children starved to death, battered wives prayed in vain for beatings to end, parents died in car wrecks, old people sat alone and forgotten in nursing homes, gay teens committed suicide, and some kid somewhere prayed for his puppy to live and it died anyway.

That has gotta be the most shallow spiritual experience I have ever heard in my life. I am ashamed that I belong to a Church that inculcates and encourages that kind of shallow thinking.

[Just This Guy]

What is probably left out of this story is that the lady in question posted about being depressed and in need of chocolate all over Facebook and had a good friend who watches their phone all day.

[RubinHighlander]

"...channel Martha Stuart when making candles in mason jars or say a prayer well enough to summon God-chocolate to my door when I really needed it!

There is a cast system in the church, both for men, women and children, but I think it's compounded for the women. The stay@Home super moms in the rich Utah wards really do, intentionally or not, make many of the lower degree gals feel like sh#t!. This was a heavy item on DWs shelf as we are a blended family and she's almost always been a working mom. There are always a dozenish "Great Families" in each ward that are always assigned all the top brass positions and have SAH moms. Many of these SAHs find mundane things to turn into spiritual experiences. I'll never forget one testimony where a women, through tears, was so grateful she had help from the HG to remove the crayon stains from a batch of clothing.

I've heard the term "Great Families" multiple times over the pulpit from bishops and SPs when one of those families moved out. This is a known problem at the COB because Elder Oaks actually talked about it at a regional conference a couple of years ago. He called the bishops out and told them they have to stop relying on those 10 or so stalwart families to fulfill all the big callings because they are denying opportunity to others. I actually empathize with the bishops. I wouldn't want to call in a 2nd class TBM, like I was at the time, only to risk getting a NO WAY response for an important calling like YMP. I'm sure this is not strictly a Mormon problem, as cast systems exist in many forms in our past and modern human organizations, but I think the LDS misogynistic priesthood lay structure does compound it.

As a blended family where both DW and I had nasty past marriages and trials, we both often felt like crap after a FTM or SM because one of the greats would brag about their perfect family life and kids. Non of my kids stayed in the church or went on missions; this was a big guilt factor for me as a TBM, always second guessing my worthiness in not being able to hold my first marriage together or possibly screwing up my kids. Thinking back on all the guilt we went through over the years as TBMs just ticks me off now.

[Deepthinker]

Then she said something I don't understand. She said those stories make her feel like God doesn't love her, because she doesn't have those experiences. What!? I asked why she would feel that way when she just agreed that those stories are not real spiritual experiences. She couldn't answer. I reminded her about the impression she had about our daughter which I believe saved our daughter's life, and told her that is a spiritual experience actually worth sharing. She wouldn't agree with that. I just don't get it.

Anyway, the point is, as annoying as these stories are to hear, they also reiterate a narrative of a woman's ideal spirituality which drastically contrasts with most of our realities. Who wouldn't want a strong enough relationship with HF that could summon free chocolate when needed? The truth is, for the woman telling the story with the chocolate, it really was incredibly spiritual and meaningful. Part of the mystery is that we never know what is going to have meaning and significance for another person. From experience, I can say that the more we look for little signs and miracles, the more they tend to occur. Sure, it could be my rational brain looking for patterns (since we are kind of biologically wired for that), but if my faith is present, then these coincidences are seen as more divinely intertwined than random. Your wife may think God-chocolate and like stories are lame (and often they are), but you can't deny that these stories hold meaning for the speakers, and that somehow it is holding up a mirror for your wife. Maybe it's revealing a hidden longing to be more connected to HF. Maybe it is preying on a female or spiritual insecurity. Maybe she's tired of blind faith and just wants a sign of reassurance. Maybe she secretly really wants chocolate. Who knows. You might not be able to rationally understand her reaction, but acknowledging her reaction and holding space for her can go a long way for both of you in understanding the situation. If this incident is drumming up old tapes about not being good enough, intuitive enough, connected enough, Mormon enough, etc., it means that she has some work to do. By holding space and not judging her, she will have a safe place where she can explore these thoughts and feelings.

Some excellent thoughts here, thank you so much. You’ve helped me see what she might be going through. I have given her space about this, and have only been venting my frustration here and not with her. Hopefully that gives her the space she needs to work it out on her own.

I did also tell her that I’m not trying to take away the Bishop’s wife’s experience, I told her I’m sure it was something she viewed as a spiritual connection.

[Deepthinker]

What is probably left out of this story is that the lady in question posted about being depressed and in need of chocolate all over Facebook and had a good friend who watches their phone all day.

DW actually talked about this. She said now she wants to know who delivered the chocolate, because if it was someone who doesn’t really know the Bishop’s wife and felt a prompting to take her chocolate, then it might mean something.

[AzCommando]

What a great thread to read or reread. Its a cold day in Mesa (and rainy) and I have the blessing of extra time on NOM with my laptop.

And of course I am immensely enjoying the second day of my weekend.

[alas]

What a great thread to read or reread. Its a cold day in Mesa (and rainy) and I have the blessing of extra time on NOM with my laptop.

And of course I am immensely enjoying the second day of my weekend.

It is a cold rainy day in Hurricane Ut also and so, like you, I am re-reading threads for deeper meaning.

And this one has me thinking.

Women in the church get used to everything in church/religion being about the men. The atonement isn't really for women if you pay close attention to the temple ceremony. Nope, women are not saved by Jesus Christ, but by their husband. Brigham outright said as much. Women don't covenant to God like the men do, but to their husband. There are only remnants of this doctrine in the temple today and it is seldom voiced. But many women FEEL it on an emotional level. All the way from primary, girls are raised in a religion that is all about and FOR men. The stories in primary are about boys who grew up to be prophet, Bible stories about men, stories about a boy who went to the woods to pray.

Women often can not verbalized the result of this kind of treatment because they are gas lighted that God loves them. But the FEELING is that God hasn't a clue they even exist.

I read somewhere that in the Mormon church, God doesn't have daughters. He has daughters in law. His only relationship with women is through their husband, his son.

I used to feel unloved/nonexistent this way, and had some remarkable spiritual experiences that I ignored because they were not about ME. I interpreted the experiences to be about my husband or my kid that God did love. Sure, God would protect my baby by telling me something that no human could have known, but that wasn't because He loved me. It was because he loved my baby boy. I was only the incubator for that precious baby boy.

But something as petty and selfish as chocolate...now that is proof that God is aware of me, not just my husband, not just my kid, but me. It proves God loves me BECAUSE it is so small and selfish. The big stuff is always for someone else. See, men believe that Christ died for them. Women do too...believe that Christ died *for men* that is. Because of how the big stuff in the church is always by men, about men, for men, women just grow up feeling that they don't count. Until something happens that could not possibly be about someone else because it is so small and petty and totally selfish.

One friend of mine, it was a sewing project she was stuck on. Not important to anyone else, just an insignificant thing that ONLY mattered to her. Petty and totally selfish, but life changing to her because it said God was aware of HER.

Because the church constantly tells women that God loves them, and then turns around and treats them as walking incubators, and pounds into them how important priesthood is, but motherhood is important too, most women cannot verbalized just how unloved they feel inside.

There is a movie called "Children of a Lesser God". It is about deaf kids, but the title really resonated with me. That one title seemed to explain my whole existence in the Mormon church.

[VisionBlue]

I actually do see a spiritual experience here. You had a conversation with your wife where you learned that she does not feel that God loves her. That must be very hard for her to say out loud even to her husband. For a TBM this is their very core. All of life is about loving and serving God and fellow man, and having a relationship with the Savior. And she feels like He doesn't love her? Even a person who doesn't believe in God should be able to understand how terrible that must feel to a believer. Imagine how heavy that feeling is to carry around, internalized that God doesn't love you.

I believe that you have the HG, nature or your natural intellect screaming at you that your wife needs some uplifting.

Maybe chocolate would be good for her. A box of chocolates with a hand written note stating how lovable she really is. "I am blessed to have you as my wife because.......", "You are a great mother because......", "You are a great friend because......" "You are great at work because......" "You are an intuitive person as you can see by how you saved our daughter". And you deserve to be loved just. as. you. are. Just like you love your family just as they are.

Maybe the spiritual experience here was an invitation for You to help her.
Actually, I need to do the same for my family. This message just may be for me. LOL.

[Silver Girl]

I don't know she would interpret it that way (maybe she feels she's wanted things that did not subsequently appear?).

All I know is that now I want chocolate. God has already blessed me with a bag of half-priced Valentine's candy - so I guess He loves me.

[wtfluff]

Honestly, I interpreted a lot of those types of stories smilarly when I was still trying to believe...

I'd sit through open-mic Sunday, hearing the stories of mormon god helping people find keys, and debit cards that had been misplaced for ~15 minutes, and think to myself: Why does he help these people with trivial day-to-day stuff, and literally ignore me when I beg and plead for him to fulfill one tiny part of my patriarchal blessing that would really improve my relationship with my wife?

I didn't necessarily conclude that mormon god didn't love me, but I definitely thought that there was something wrong with me. (The Corporation™ pretty much has a patent on this type of victim-blaming I think...)

[Give It Time]

Sounds like your wife feels marginalized. I would suggest you step up and show her little bits of appreciation and that will help, but won't fill the void. People are weird. They're perfectly fine shutting you out, but once you grow a spine and start seeking friends elsewhere, it awakens their insecurities and they'll start treating you better. This better treatment will last for a little while until things equalize, in their minds and they'll feel safe of putting you back in your regular spot in their universe of the one they marginalize.

This is what's behind the offended/love bombing mindset. Unless you get a really powerful calling, this will probably continue to happen. She's probably pretty involved in the church, so I'm not going to suggest upping that. I'm going to suggest she develop an outside interest, something that takes time away from the church, a little bit. All of a sudden, she's not so available for this calling, or she's busy during her old VT times. She'll become happier, because she's more fulfilled. She'll smile more readily, because she has friends elsewhere. Your ward members will notice. This may get some people wanting to develop a friendship or not. Probably, but no guarantee. Thing is, it won't matter, because she'll have less need of validation from the sisters in the ward.

There's a saying I was taught in my marriage class at the Y. The less interested person controls the relationship. It's pretty true. I'm not saying to use this tactic as a means of playing games. I don't believe in that, but it sounds like your wife feels left out and forgotten by the sisters in the ward. Fine. Let her be remembered and included elsewhere. This isn't to win over the ward sisters. This is for your wife to bring people into her life who are truly supportive. If the ward sisters don't appreciate your wife, that's their loss.

I don't know if that's what's happening. However, stories like this usually indicate that is the scenario. I could be wrong and, yes, I'm speaking from experience. I'm totally owning my projecting. Give your wife lots of love and support and if she has an outside interest, encourage it.