NOM

The church would collapse:

If all the LGBTQ would quit BYU rather than fight the honor code for acceptance.

If all the inactive members removed their names and resigned rather than just not show up on Sunday.

If all the NOMs quit going.

If all the disaffected people spoke up and voted with their feet. ($ doesn’t matter, they have enough even if people stopped paying).

Isn’t it crazy to think about every faction that holds on to their relationship with the church?

Like let’s just quit and go do something else?

The church would eventual cease to exist.

Yeah, I know it’s complicated. We have family and friends inside. But that’s how close we are from letting it cave in on itself.

I was just saying that earlier although not as nicely put as yours.

People need to just run from this church and never look back.

It's an abusive relationship for LGBTs and there's no reason to stay considering the church is provably false.

It's a terrible place for anyone who doesn't believe but feels forced to hang on for their family.

And it's beyond toxic to those who actually care about science, scholarship, and basic common sense.

Run away and never look back - don't give them the satisfaction of protesting and caring.

I really need to just resign already... maybe that's a goal for 2020 to just rip off the bandaid. Or have a "loss of membership privileges" or whatever they're calling getting ex'ed now.

The church would collapse:

If all the LGBTQ would quit BYU rather than fight the honor code for acceptance.

If all the inactive members removed their names and resigned rather than just not show up on Sunday.

If all the NOMs quit going.

If all the disaffected people spoke up and voted with their feet. ($ doesn’t matter, they have enough even if people stopped paying).

Isn’t it crazy to think about every faction that holds on to their relationship with the church?

Like let’s just quit and go do something else?

The church would eventual cease to exist.

Yeah, I know it’s complicated. We have family and friends inside. But that’s how close we are from letting it cave in on itself.

Agreed. If everyone you mentioned above, did this in one or two days, it would be an over-the-top victory. You're right-- it is complicated. But, it's wonderful to imagine, because it would be a tremendous victory. -- Wndr.

I don't know.....

I think the church has one or two buried revelations that speak of a great test or separating that will come over the church close to the 2nd Coming. So many members and authorities would actually see a large schism as not unexpected. It would just be a matter of determining who are the wolves and who are the sheep.

I believe there are a core group of believers that will continue on no matter what happens or what is "proven" to them. You could show them video of Bednar having his way with a soiled dove and they would say it was doctored.
They would probably control the money and after the dust settled the remaining religion would become even more self-encloistered, paranoid, entrenched, regressive, distrustful as it has ever been.

It's a bit of a prisoner's dilemma. The intellectuals, progressives, NOMs, inactive, people who don't take it seriously but still go for many reasons. We would all be better off if we stopped going and created other relationships that are actually healthy. However, to be the one who leaves first can be hard.

I think it is getting easier. When I was a kid, examples of exmormons were Roseanne Barr and Alice Cooper. (I have since learned that Alice was Bickertonite, but still.) Nobody told me about Kip Thorne or Lowry Nelson as a kid. Now, people can see Amy Adams and Marco Rubio. Normal people leave the church and find success. The stories are everywhere.

blazerb wrote: ↑Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:00 am However, to be the one who leaves first can be hard.

It can also be very hard to be the last, or one of the last to go. If you have, for example, parents who think YOU are the last stalwart to hang on, you really don't want to disappoint.

hmb wrote: ↑Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:53 am

blazerb wrote: ↑Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:00 am However, to be the one who leaves first can be hard.

It can also be very hard to be the last, or one of the last to go. If you have, for example, parents who think YOU are the last stalwart to hang on, you really don't want to disappoint.

Oh, yeah. That would be devastating to my parents, I know.

I think all of this is true - the church would collapse faster if most of those on the fence would just say screw it and find something else to do. And man, I wish I could join the parade. But I can't.

I tend to see this more like the last few years of the communist regime in Eastern Europe - the church, like the communists, are just hanging on to outdated dogma that they know won't work, because it's all the power they know. They are true believers, they just know deep down that they'll need to make changes they simply don't believe in. That's why Gorbachev is such a fascinating figure - he knew that the ship was sinking, and made a last desperate heave at the buzzer, and it bounced off the rim. And the whole house of cards came a tumblin' down. Maybe if Utchdorf gets the big chair, he'll bring in the Mormon glasnost? To me, the church is in slow decline right now, the membership data is pretty clear, and I give it a decade or two before the negative growth stats kick in and really starts to affect what they're doing. It's happening now with all the changes Nelson has brought in, clearly they are the changes of a declining church. But they have the money, they have the time, they have the older members who love what they're doing, they have the will, and this is going to be slow. That's just the reality.

And here's where I don't want to be. They were still shooting people trying to escape over the Berlin wall up until the last few weeks of the wall's existence. I don't want to be that poor sap, brave as he might be, trying to flee for freedom at the last minute. I'd rather wait until the final collapse, then WALK out the door with my head held high. Call me a coward, that's fine, but I'll probably still be with my family when it all comes crashing down. And I'll be there to pick up the pieces for them when it does. And that means more to me than anything, including my moral compass or my conscience. These things will do me a fat lot of good without the people I really care about. So in the meantime, I'll suffer but not in silence, and let the marginalized people around me know who are suffering likewise that they have a friend. That's about all I can do right now.

So, in a nutshell, it is our minds that imprison us and keep us members (okay, not me; I'm out, but I don't have pressure from family, friends, or work).

Maybe we think we can change something. Maybe we're getting pressure. Maybe a loved one would have a heart attack and die (I am totally not being facetious here). There are so many ways that we can feel guilty enough or fearful enough to not take the action that is best for our sanity and souls.

What would happen to the church if all the Q15 got the Coronavirus and died all within a week or so of each other?

I was really hoping more changes would take place after the Sam Young fast/marches. We know why minimal changes took place following this. We can't have a disaffected member be more inspired than the profit. Had something big happened to worthiness interviews, i.e., no longer conduct them, the missionary program would have taken a big hit.

So what I thought might be the beginning of the end was just an ex-bishop receiving a "withdrawal of membership" and TSCC saying "hey, bring a parent in if you want." It's hard to get my hopes up anymore since TSCC is so good at gaslighting the members and spinning everything.

2bizE wrote: ↑Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:41 pm What would happen to the church if all the Q15 got the Coronavirus and died all within a week or so of each other?

It might restore some of our faith in God being just.

slk wrote: ↑Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:55 pm I was really hoping more changes would take place after the Sam Young fast/marches. We know why minimal changes took place following this. We can't have a disaffected member be more inspired than the profit. Had something big happened to worthiness interviews, i.e., no longer conduct them, the missionary program would have taken a big hit.

So what I thought might be the beginning of the end was just an ex-bishop receiving a "withdrawal of membership" and TSCC saying "hey, bring a parent in if you want." It's hard to get my hopes up anymore since TSCC is so good at gaslighting the members and spinning everything.

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly they change their tune and how oblivious the membership is about it. I have so many people in my life who choose to believe against all logic and rationality. The BYU honor code debacle is the most recent example. Pox reversal (but not in the handbook) is another one. Essays...I mean people can't seem to scream loudly enough with their fingers in their ears to avoid hearing and seeing what is going on, but yet here we are.

2bizE wrote: ↑Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:41 pm What would happen to the church if all the Q15 got the Coronavirus and died all within a week or so of each other?

I seem to recall that from a doctrinal point of view, the entire Presidency of the Seventy could ordain a new apostle who could restart the quorum. Once he filled all fifteen slots, the articles of incorporation could kick in from the Corporation of the President and reconstitute the organization.

Palerider wrote: ↑Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:53 pm You could show them video of Bednar having his way with a soiled dove and they would say it was doctored.

No, they would say it was God-sanctioned.

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:49 pm They were still shooting people trying to escape over the Berlin wall up until the last few weeks of the wall's existence. I don't want to be that poor sap, brave as he might be, trying to flee for freedom at the last minute. I

Maybe you could be more of a new Samuel the Lamanite, standing on top of the wall, hanging a moon at all of the people still inside.

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:49 amI seem to recall that from a doctrinal point of view, the entire Presidency of the Seventy could ordain a new apostle who could restart the quorum. Once he filled all fifteen slots, the articles of incorporation could kick in from the Corporation of the President and reconstitute the organization.

Too bad Jesus wasn't smart enough to come up with a robust system like that in the original church he set up. I guess he learned a thing or two after the great apostasy. Gotta love the plot holes in Mormon theology!

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:49 am

2bizE wrote: ↑Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:41 pm What would happen to the church if all the Q15 got the Coronavirus and died all within a week or so of each other?

I seem to recall that from a doctrinal point of view, the entire Presidency of the Seventy could ordain a new apostle who could restart the quorum. Once he filled all fifteen slots, the articles of incorporation could kick in from the Corporation of the President and reconstitute the organization.

Oh my Gods... We would end up with Tad Callister and Ponderize it guy and Clayton running the show.

MoPag wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:38 am

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:49 am

2bizE wrote: ↑Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:41 pm What would happen to the church if all the Q15 got the Coronavirus and died all within a week or so of each other?

I seem to recall that from a doctrinal point of view, the entire Presidency of the Seventy could ordain a new apostle who could restart the quorum. Once he filled all fifteen slots, the articles of incorporation could kick in from the Corporation of the President and reconstitute the organization.

Oh my Gods... We would end up with Tad Callister and Ponderize it guy and Clayton running the show.

Hmmmmm......

Now that would be fun to watch.

MoPag wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:38 am Oh my Gods... We would end up with Tad Callister and Ponderize it guy and Clayton running the show.

fetchface wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:13 am Too bad Jesus wasn't smart enough to come up with a robust system like that in the original church he set up. I guess he learned a thing or two after the great apostasy. Gotta love the plot holes in Mormon theology!

The new First Presidency of President Tad "Historical BoM" Callister, President L. Whitney "Obedience" Clayton, and President Devin "Ponderize" Durrant would need to produce a new First Vision (Second Vision?) and a rationale for retaining the priesthood keys of authority.