NOM

I went to our ward Christmas party last week. They showed the new Christ Child video. The bishop did his best to elicit emotion, but i felt nothing.

In years past I could summon what I thought was the spirit in these situations. Now it all seems contrived. I sort of wanted to feel something, but could not make it happen.

I am a causality of scientific thought. I must have some imperial evidence to sway me anymore. The good part is I can be swayed if the evidence is sound. But emotional feelings have so little impact on me anymore.

At times I wonder what it means to be spiritual for me, or if there is even such a thing. Is there a way to adhere to logic and evidence and believe in unseen things?




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Did anyone remark that your countenance was darker?

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:55 am Is there a way to adhere to logic and evidence and believe in unseen things?

I believe there can be, but the nature of those things may have to change significantly, like from believing in specific beings who act in specific ways to embracing the mystery of something that is by definition beyond your comprehension, without the expectation that you can gain anything from it via ritual. I don't believe any of the stories but I still surprise myself with occasional spiritual experiences, and some of them have been jarringly profound. The thing is, I can't conclusively attribute them to something beyond chemistry and evolution, so I guess the answer is just to try to remain open to possibilities but with your BS detector always set to MAX.

I think the biggest change comes when we realize that we can/should stop believing things just because someone (or some book) says it's so. That is the major dive off the cliff. My personal spiritual take on things has gone in the direction of Pantheism and Taoism, but I am waiting for further light and knowledge from the cosmos.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:56 am Did anyone remark that your countenance was darker?

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:55 am Is there a way to adhere to logic and evidence and believe in unseen things?

I believe there can be, but the nature of those things may have to change significantly, like from believing in specific beings who act in specific ways to embracing the mystery of something that is by definition beyond your comprehension, without the expectation that you can gain anything from it via ritual.

I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth Hagoth, but could this be better said:

"I believe there can be, but the manner in which we view those things may have to change significantly....."

Our ability to view things of a spiritual nature is so restricted by our flesh and our relationship to this world that we become almost unable to fathom anything that cannot be understood through the five senses and the strictly logical part of our brain. That is our nature.

And that is, in a sense, a good thing because that is how this world operates and we must for the time being exist in it. Even our emotions are influenced by the physical nature of the brain that constrains them. Our emotions are actually intended to help us in a physical world.

But in the spiritual sense, emotions are only a POSSIBLE reflection of, or reaction to, a spiritual communication. They are not that communication itself.

Further, I would contend that the longer we exist in this physical sphere the more our nature becomes a part of it. In some ways as we "mature" physically, our spiritual side loses it's sensitivity. Our bodies are truly earth related. Even more than that they are "Earthen". The longer they go through the natural processes and stages of all things in this world, the more they long for the earth from whence they came. True righteousness (not the kind sought through ritual as you mention) helps to keep us aware of possible spiritual communications but even righteousness doesn't guarantee them. They only come as needed if we are already on the right track and they still come as occasional warnings if we are on the wrong track. God doesn't ignore the unrighteous. But he does appreciate those who seek him out and heed his calling to them.

It's interesting to me that having studied Native Americans just a little, they did have "ritual" that they considered necessary and sacred. But those rituals were more geared to honoring and thanking the Creator for the blessings that came with the changing of the seasons and gathering times. They felt that it would be a dishonor to not express their appreciation.

I see something like the institution of the last supper in a similar light. A remembering and an expression of appreciation.

In Mormon ritual the constant, incessant repetition of ceremony becomes the act of righteousness moreso than how we treat our fellow man and the earth. Where is the efficacy in constant covenant making that will likely be broken on some level even before we leave the chapel or temple?

Is seeking to please God the same as seeking for spiritual experiences? I don't see myself as "seeking to have a spiritual experience" as is a common phrase used in the church. I remember in preparing for a Stake Youth conference one of our Stake presidency counselors saying, "We want to set this up so that our youth can have a spiritual experience."

We'll, that's manipulative on it's face. It can't be done in reality. It reflects a poor understanding of how God operates. One might generate emotionalism, but that doesn't mean that's the Spirit.

Staying open to spiritual communication is what's important and welcoming it when it comes.

Whoa.....I've gone on long enough. I get carried away.

I find myself unemotional about anything church related, unless annoyance counts. Especially when it looks like someone is milking tears as a manifestation of being spiritually moved. But I still get emotional similar to what I used to think was the spirit sometimes.

My 8 year old son was recognized at school as being someone who loves to learn, and I got a little choked up because that is a big part of who I am and it can help him escape the brainwashings he gets in primary. The Avengers movies move me. Pan's Labyrinth too. I can sometimes get emotional about Jesus if I treat it like a super hero story and not worry about whether it is real or not.

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:55 am I am a causality of scientific thought. I must have some imperial evidence to sway me anymore. The good part is I can be swayed if the evidence is sound. But emotional feelings have so little impact on me anymore.

This resonates with me. Similar to what Linked said I can feel emotional when watching emotional stories, but church does nothing for me.

I do muse about the things that science has no answers for. "What is consciousness?" or "Where did our universe come from" stuff like that, but I don't feel more curious than emotional.

I used to try to work myself up about Jesus, during Christmas time, but I haven't done that for the past couple of years.

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:55 amAt times I wonder what it means to be spiritual for me, or if there is even such a thing.

If you wonder about what it means, why not define exactly what "spiritual" means to you? Does being "spiritual" mean you have to believe in ghosts? If that's the case, for me, I cannot be spiritual at all, because I've stopped believing in ghosts, no matter what qualifier you put before the word "GHOST." (Holy, Friendly, etc.)

Personally: Do I still feel the emotions that MORmONism (and every other religion I've seen) calls "The Spirit™?" Yes, I still feel those emotions. Just as much or more than when I was a believer. I don't believe those feelings are anything more than emotions. I can trigger those emotions any time I want to now, knowing what those triggers are. Do I still feel empathy and sympathy for other humans when I hear their stories that might trigger those emotions? Yes. Do I still get emotional about the religious stories that were used my entire life to manipulate me? Not so much. Now that I know that the vast majority those stories are mostly fictional, maybe with some facts and real history tossed in, those stories don't trigger "The Spirit™" like previously. Those stories can trigger anger now that I know they were made up to manipulate me... Is that "Spiritual?"

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:55 amIs there a way to adhere to logic and evidence and believe in unseen things?

Hmm... I believe in gravity, how 'bout you?

Palerider wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:07 am I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth Hagoth, but could this be better said:

"I believe there can be, but the manner in which we view those things may have to change significantly....."

Thanks Palerider. I think a better restating of what I was trying to say might be that our expectations may have to change significantly.

I'm not even sure what "spiritual" means anymore, so I guess not. I'm empathetic, and I love people. I work in a job that requires me to spend a lot of face-to-face time with people in difficult situations, and I get to help them make it a little better. If I start to get emotional about something, it's usually related to that.

I am moved by nature, and by the love I see expressed by people. I feel very blessed to live where (Utah) and when (21st cen.) I live and I realize the financial advantages of being born a white male which I didn't really earn. I feel I'm one of the most fortunate of God's creations, though I don't know what all that means. I am moved by Christmas music, Broadway musicals, and many of the very thoughtful posts on this site.

I've found that the word "spiritual" has become almost repellent to me. I guess in part because so many things that word connotes have become so empty. I still outwardly practice my religious tradition to some degree, though.

It sure would be nice to somehow be convinced again that I have a spiritual component that will survive death. Or even that there's such a thing as a self in the first place to have that spiritual component.

I'm also nostalgic for when I could be frightened when thinking about the possibility of malevolent spirits. That, at least, would be something.

Ghost wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:56 pm I've found that the word "spiritual" has become almost repellent to me. I guess in part because so many things that word connotes have become so empty. I still outwardly practice my religious tradition to some degree, though.

It sure would be nice to somehow be convinced again that I have a spiritual component that will survive death. Or even that there's such a thing as a self in the first place to have that spiritual component.

I'm also nostalgic for when I could be frightened when thinking about the possibility of malevolent spirits. That, at least, would be something.

I find it repellent as well. It is too closely associated with the shallow brand of "spirituality" I encountered far too often in Mormonism where it was nothing more than a means to attempt to impress other people. A truly spiritual person wouldn't have to make a show of it, but most of the "spiritual" people I knew in the Church were going to make damn well sure you knew they were.

I certainly have opted out of the emotional confirmation bias methods of my former tribe. I have instead found many new connections to nature and the universe, as well as deeper connections to loved ones. These have provided me much more intense and fulfilling emotional moments. I hate using the word spiritual because it's pretty much owned by organized religion or other organizations that thrive on control and like tribal thinking. Instead of spiritual I like to refer to it as an intense or real connection, a transcendent experience or just an emotional response. None of my transcendent experiences (postmo) have been with any particular divine entity that religions have invented. It's amazing how much more meaningful, deep, real and enjoyable my connections are with my loved ones, now that the religion is out of our lives.

I am bothered by the persistent attempt to make every church activity into a spiritual experience. This is not how everyone processes their faith and it certainly fails to resonate with me. There is largely no way to express this idea to leadership how the average meeting tries to produce the lowest common denominator of spiritual experience through intense emotions.

It's a problem to express this opinion. "Ruining someone's spiritual experience" is quite high on the list of near unforgivable sins in LDS culture. However, On the other hand "Failing to feel the spirit" or "Not feeling inspired by a meeting" is strictly a personal problem worthy of shame.

Corsair wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:04 am... the lowest common denominator of spiritual experience through intense emotions...

Curious: If intense emotion is the lowest common denominator of spiritual experience, what is the "highest" common denominator of spiritual experience?

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:49 pm

Corsair wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:04 am... the lowest common denominator of spiritual experience through intense emotions...

Curious: If intense emotion is the lowest common denominator of spiritual experience, what is the "highest" common denominator of spiritual experience?

It involves an angel and a sword...

When I started my transition, I used to say that I was spiritual, but not religious.
I don’t think I’m spiritual now.
Spiritual for me is standing in the middle of a stream fly fishing. Whatever that is, that is where I feel closest to nature/Mother Earth/the spirit of greatness.

Linked wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:29 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:49 pm

Corsair wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:04 am... the lowest common denominator of spiritual experience through intense emotions...

Curious: If intense emotion is the lowest common denominator of spiritual experience, what is the "highest" common denominator of spiritual experience?

It involves an angel and a sword...

Does the angel shake hands?

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:25 pm

Linked wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:29 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:49 pm

Curious: If intense emotion is the lowest common denominator of spiritual experience, what is the "highest" common denominator of spiritual experience?

It involves an angel and a sword...

Does the angel shake hands?

Having visited the services of many faith traditions, I observed that the LDS Church does a poor job of evoking feelings of spirituality. When you are not feeling spiritually nourished, perhaps that is due to the Church not being set up for that purpose. On the other hand, we get to hear ward members talk on various subjects.

I have been debating whether or not to respond to this. I am probably a minority that still believes in something. So, I am going to have to plead guilty to this, just not in the Mormon version of “spiritual” which to me is just emotion, pretty shallow emotion at that. Third rate awe. I feel more awe gazing at the Milky Way than I ever did in any kind of church setting, but that is still emotion. The Mormon version of “spiritual” always felt very dead to me. Manufactured and third rate. Trite. Cheesy. Like watching the Hallmark Christmas movies. One plot with minor variations, very predictable, cheesy, shallow, but not realistic at all. The holes in the plot are gaping and if you stop to apply logic, the whole thing falls apart. Sit back, shut off the brain and just believe.

But I do believe there is something beyond us that has an ability to communicate with us. But those communications never told me a thing about “yes the Mormon church is true.” In fact, once I was told flat out that it doesn’t matter. It was confusing because it was at a time when I was trying to believe. None of the stuff from any organized religion is of any importance. If it helps you fine, if it doesn’t then that is fine too. This earth matters. I am not sure that we as individual human beings matter very much. I have no idea who or what that something is, but it knows stuff that even my own subconscious didn’t know, so I am a believer in some version of something, some intelligence beyond us that can communicate with us.